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Discussion - LEW 4th Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Graf" data-source="post: 4393171" data-attributes="member: 3087"><p>I haven't properly absorbed Halford's sketch yet. I do have a strong personal reaction to this.</p><p></p><p></p><p> [sblock=Imperium hobgoblins]</p><p> As you've mentioned hobgoblin empires have been done before, lots (kenzer did them, I think there are a bunch in Greyhawk). </p><p> </p><p> They work best in a setting like Eberron when they have a great, really detailed backstory to call upon.</p><p> Empire of Dhakaan, which dominated Khorvaire and fought the invading overlords of Xorat to a bloody standstill over hundreds of years, buying time for the Gatekeepers to perform their rituals. Supplanted by humans and presumed to be primitive savages their hidding clans of warriors protecting ancient traditions rise to the surface warring with their primitive bretherin for the soul of the future of their nation.</p><p> </p><p> That's the apex of the ancient <s>hob</s>goblin empire to me. Three different races with a shared tradition.</p><p> </p><p> The problem I see with trying to make hobgoblin + imperium is that whole system doesn't make a whole lot of sense. </p><p>Hobgoblins are lawful evil oppressors; they're straight forward, their society is militaristic and focused with clear lines of command. Great warleaders of tremendous personal power drive their war engine unceasingly in the name of bloody gods. They live short, regimented and brutal lives of sacrifice and blood.</p><p>You -can- drop that fluff (eberron did a fantastic job of keeping most of it and just flavoring it differently) but you're loosing out a bit. And many DMs/players want their hobgoblins/goblinoids to be hobgoblins and goblinoids.</p><p> </p><p> The imperium is, at least in principal, a (representative) democracy. The most powerful people are a bunch of old guys in togas who talk a lot in a big public room that ever citizen has the right to come and visit. In principal ANY citizen can be elected to the Senate.</p><p> </p><p> They have an official religion with lots of good gods and have state-sponsored paladins and clerics who go around smiting evil.</p><p> </p><p> When they invade they do so in the name of "bringing civilization to the darkness". The people they invade hate them, but they rule the outlying colonies with justice and fairness (which makes the unequality at the core of the system at that much more jarring).</p><p> </p><p> They are, as written now, an invading force that is disliked throughout the rest of the cosmos (land, world, whatever the setting will become) but they aren't a bunch of savage humanoids. And they aren't savage-humanoids-with-good-PR. </p><p> They're actually a weird mix of some really good traits and really bad traits.</p><p> </p><p> Personally, if I were going to compare their roll with an Eberron element I'd choose Thrane.[/sblock]</p><p> </p><p></p><p>[sblock=My bias against superheroic elves that don't do anything]</p><p>Here's my bias: Elves in 1e, 2e, 3e, tolkien, FR, Greyhawk,etc etc are <strong>basically superheroes</strong>. </p><p>They're humans, </p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">with magical powers</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">superior grace and intelligence</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">an elevated society who live in tune with nature,</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">are all physical beautiful,</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">are masters of arcane magic (usually the "original masters" who taught everybody else)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the best swordsmen ever</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the best archers</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the best woodsmen</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ultrawise</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">and live forever.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">they have a long glorious history</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">may come from some special magical land or live in a special magical land, and on</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">and on</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">and on</li> </ul><p></p><p>They rarely have anything that could be called a negative trait and when they do it's not something I think of as being important (they're short, or their ancestors did something bad, or they have a low birthrate, or they're a little bit fragile). Or their race is dying. Not that they actually die, that would be lame, elves travel to some <strong>magical elf-only heaven </strong>instead.; usually some far off island. Occasionally, if you save the world you can go live with them. But if you're an elf (any elf) you get in to paradise-on-earth for free.</p><p></p><p>And yet they never really do anything in a fantasy setting. They just sit around on their crystal thrones at the edge of their magical woods with their hand crafted talking swords and look beautiful. Occasially rare elf gets off their duff and does something (usually a PC, legolas, or a plot enabler, elron). Or one of their pretty little elf girls falls in love with a protagonist human (like half of all fantasy novels ever).</p><p></p><p>I find this profoundly meh. </p><p>4e tried to tackle this by "splitting" the elves. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Elves: the roving bands of nature worshippers. I think is just a stronger concept; provided you're willing to make their nature worshiping a specific cultural thing. They live for ever and, as a group, they may be the most dangerous foe you could have, but they don't act as a group or get together or form nations because it's against their culture. (And they live for so long that their culture/religion/etc is very very strong)</p><p></p><p>Eladrin: you have what's left; the arcane intelligent otherworldy superhumans (in the vein of the elves Aerenal from eberron). </p><p>I get a sort of creepy alien vibe from them. </p><p></p><p>I'd like it if we could have a group of eladrin who immigrated to the Imperium and dominated it. I love the idea of a democracy that is built on the rule of law and debate and high culture but isn't really democratic because these 300 year old jerks are camped out there.</p><p>I love the idea that, while they aren't evil, being really really old and really wise makes you somewhat callous about the lives of "lesser" creatures.</p><p>And, of course, the most callous people begin to accumulate the greatest power.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying that all eladrin come from the Imperium, but I would like to have it as a group in the world. They offer an interesting threat/challenge.[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>That's just my take. I'm happy to have a hobgoblin empire, but I'd prefer to have the Imperium be more than "the Lawful Evil guys".</p><p></p><p>[d]===[/d]</p><p>I'll see if I can finesse Daunton and the Allerian league into the Isles. </p><p>My only concern would be that people seemed to really want a non-developed/smaller setting. So I'll try to keep that flavor.</p><p></p><p>I'll also put a little bit about the Tortuga, maybe GK can flesh it out more (or delete/fix/etc if I'm off)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Graf, post: 4393171, member: 3087"] I haven't properly absorbed Halford's sketch yet. I do have a strong personal reaction to this. [sblock=Imperium hobgoblins] As you've mentioned hobgoblin empires have been done before, lots (kenzer did them, I think there are a bunch in Greyhawk). They work best in a setting like Eberron when they have a great, really detailed backstory to call upon. Empire of Dhakaan, which dominated Khorvaire and fought the invading overlords of Xorat to a bloody standstill over hundreds of years, buying time for the Gatekeepers to perform their rituals. Supplanted by humans and presumed to be primitive savages their hidding clans of warriors protecting ancient traditions rise to the surface warring with their primitive bretherin for the soul of the future of their nation. That's the apex of the ancient [s]hob[/s]goblin empire to me. Three different races with a shared tradition. The problem I see with trying to make hobgoblin + imperium is that whole system doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Hobgoblins are lawful evil oppressors; they're straight forward, their society is militaristic and focused with clear lines of command. Great warleaders of tremendous personal power drive their war engine unceasingly in the name of bloody gods. They live short, regimented and brutal lives of sacrifice and blood. You -can- drop that fluff (eberron did a fantastic job of keeping most of it and just flavoring it differently) but you're loosing out a bit. And many DMs/players want their hobgoblins/goblinoids to be hobgoblins and goblinoids. The imperium is, at least in principal, a (representative) democracy. The most powerful people are a bunch of old guys in togas who talk a lot in a big public room that ever citizen has the right to come and visit. In principal ANY citizen can be elected to the Senate. They have an official religion with lots of good gods and have state-sponsored paladins and clerics who go around smiting evil. When they invade they do so in the name of "bringing civilization to the darkness". The people they invade hate them, but they rule the outlying colonies with justice and fairness (which makes the unequality at the core of the system at that much more jarring). They are, as written now, an invading force that is disliked throughout the rest of the cosmos (land, world, whatever the setting will become) but they aren't a bunch of savage humanoids. And they aren't savage-humanoids-with-good-PR. They're actually a weird mix of some really good traits and really bad traits. Personally, if I were going to compare their roll with an Eberron element I'd choose Thrane.[/sblock] [sblock=My bias against superheroic elves that don't do anything] Here's my bias: Elves in 1e, 2e, 3e, tolkien, FR, Greyhawk,etc etc are [B]basically superheroes[/B]. They're humans, [LIST] [*]with magical powers [*]superior grace and intelligence [*]an elevated society who live in tune with nature, [*]are all physical beautiful, [*]are masters of arcane magic (usually the "original masters" who taught everybody else) [*]the best swordsmen ever [*]the best archers [*]the best woodsmen [*]ultrawise [*]and live forever. [*]they have a long glorious history [*]may come from some special magical land or live in a special magical land, and on [*]and on [*]and on [/LIST] They rarely have anything that could be called a negative trait and when they do it's not something I think of as being important (they're short, or their ancestors did something bad, or they have a low birthrate, or they're a little bit fragile). Or their race is dying. Not that they actually die, that would be lame, elves travel to some [B]magical elf-only heaven [/B]instead.; usually some far off island. Occasionally, if you save the world you can go live with them. But if you're an elf (any elf) you get in to paradise-on-earth for free. And yet they never really do anything in a fantasy setting. They just sit around on their crystal thrones at the edge of their magical woods with their hand crafted talking swords and look beautiful. Occasially rare elf gets off their duff and does something (usually a PC, legolas, or a plot enabler, elron). Or one of their pretty little elf girls falls in love with a protagonist human (like half of all fantasy novels ever). I find this profoundly meh. 4e tried to tackle this by "splitting" the elves. Elves: the roving bands of nature worshippers. I think is just a stronger concept; provided you're willing to make their nature worshiping a specific cultural thing. They live for ever and, as a group, they may be the most dangerous foe you could have, but they don't act as a group or get together or form nations because it's against their culture. (And they live for so long that their culture/religion/etc is very very strong) Eladrin: you have what's left; the arcane intelligent otherworldy superhumans (in the vein of the elves Aerenal from eberron). I get a sort of creepy alien vibe from them. I'd like it if we could have a group of eladrin who immigrated to the Imperium and dominated it. I love the idea of a democracy that is built on the rule of law and debate and high culture but isn't really democratic because these 300 year old jerks are camped out there. I love the idea that, while they aren't evil, being really really old and really wise makes you somewhat callous about the lives of "lesser" creatures. And, of course, the most callous people begin to accumulate the greatest power. I'm not saying that all eladrin come from the Imperium, but I would like to have it as a group in the world. They offer an interesting threat/challenge.[/sblock] That's just my take. I'm happy to have a hobgoblin empire, but I'd prefer to have the Imperium be more than "the Lawful Evil guys". [d]===[/d] I'll see if I can finesse Daunton and the Allerian league into the Isles. My only concern would be that people seemed to really want a non-developed/smaller setting. So I'll try to keep that flavor. I'll also put a little bit about the Tortuga, maybe GK can flesh it out more (or delete/fix/etc if I'm off) [/QUOTE]
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