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Discussion: Storm Pillar and Hindering Terrain
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<blockquote data-quote="TwoHeadsBarking" data-source="post: 4999617" data-attributes="member: 82251"><p>Yeah, sorry. I think/hope that was one of the things you changed in your edit.</p><p></p><p>In the following post, I use "unsafe" and "hindering" to mean separate things. "Unsafe" means it punishes/prevents movement or causes damage when you enter, while "hindering" means the same as "unsafe", except it also counts as hindering terrain for any rules, powers, and abilities that work with hindering terrain. I believe that while all hindering terrain is unsafe, not all unsafe terrain is hindering.</p><p></p><p>Ok, here's my argument:</p><p></p><p>Powers only do what they explicitly state they do. No power explicitly creates hindering terrain. Therefore, no power creates hindering terrain.</p><p></p><p>The second premise is fact. A search through the compendium reveals this. So if we agree that no power explicitly creates hindering terrain, then there must be contention as to whether powers can do more than what they explicitly state they do. Specifically, whether a power that duplicates a terrain's effect is, in fact, creating that terrain.</p><p></p><p>However, it is possible to duplicate a terrain's effect without creating the terrain. Again, moving through a Prismatic Wall costs double movement, just like difficult terrain. However, Prismatic Wall does not create difficult terrain. If it did, then the writers would have just said it creates difficult terrain, rather than restate the difficult terrain rules. Here we have an example of a power doing the same thing difficult terrain does without creating difficult terrain.</p><p></p><p>So if we can create squares that cost double movement without them being difficult terrain, it isn't outside the realm of reason that it's possible to create unsafe squares without them being hindering terrain. By default, no power creates difficult terrain. There are many powers that explicitly state that they create difficult terrain. Why is hindering terrain any different?</p><p></p><p>The above, by the way, is also pretty much my response to your request for rules that state that auto-damage squares aren't hindering terrain. Hindering terrain is a specific term with specific relations to rules, powers, and abilities. If the text doesn't say something is hindering terrain, then it isn't.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Some other stuff that isn't directly related to my argument, but I think is worth considering:</p><p></p><p>If damaging zones create hindering terrain, why isn't this mentioned in the PHB? The PHB contains powers with forced movement and powers with damaging zones; so why doesn't it also talk about how people get saves when the two are combined? This is sort of a big deal. Even if they just forgot the first time around, wouldn't they have stated this in the rules updates the PHB2 contains?</p><p></p><p>Are Archliches and Warlocks with Minions of Malbolge up are surrounded by a ring of hindering terrain that moves as they do?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Regarding Storm Pillar, there's a CS response <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/255185-movement-vs-entering-interesting-custserv-response.html" target="_blank">here</a> that says it doesn't trigger off forced movement. Make of that what you will, but I find the hindering terrain discussion more interesting.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TwoHeadsBarking, post: 4999617, member: 82251"] Yeah, sorry. I think/hope that was one of the things you changed in your edit. In the following post, I use "unsafe" and "hindering" to mean separate things. "Unsafe" means it punishes/prevents movement or causes damage when you enter, while "hindering" means the same as "unsafe", except it also counts as hindering terrain for any rules, powers, and abilities that work with hindering terrain. I believe that while all hindering terrain is unsafe, not all unsafe terrain is hindering. Ok, here's my argument: Powers only do what they explicitly state they do. No power explicitly creates hindering terrain. Therefore, no power creates hindering terrain. The second premise is fact. A search through the compendium reveals this. So if we agree that no power explicitly creates hindering terrain, then there must be contention as to whether powers can do more than what they explicitly state they do. Specifically, whether a power that duplicates a terrain's effect is, in fact, creating that terrain. However, it is possible to duplicate a terrain's effect without creating the terrain. Again, moving through a Prismatic Wall costs double movement, just like difficult terrain. However, Prismatic Wall does not create difficult terrain. If it did, then the writers would have just said it creates difficult terrain, rather than restate the difficult terrain rules. Here we have an example of a power doing the same thing difficult terrain does without creating difficult terrain. So if we can create squares that cost double movement without them being difficult terrain, it isn't outside the realm of reason that it's possible to create unsafe squares without them being hindering terrain. By default, no power creates difficult terrain. There are many powers that explicitly state that they create difficult terrain. Why is hindering terrain any different? The above, by the way, is also pretty much my response to your request for rules that state that auto-damage squares aren't hindering terrain. Hindering terrain is a specific term with specific relations to rules, powers, and abilities. If the text doesn't say something is hindering terrain, then it isn't. Some other stuff that isn't directly related to my argument, but I think is worth considering: If damaging zones create hindering terrain, why isn't this mentioned in the PHB? The PHB contains powers with forced movement and powers with damaging zones; so why doesn't it also talk about how people get saves when the two are combined? This is sort of a big deal. Even if they just forgot the first time around, wouldn't they have stated this in the rules updates the PHB2 contains? Are Archliches and Warlocks with Minions of Malbolge up are surrounded by a ring of hindering terrain that moves as they do? Regarding Storm Pillar, there's a CS response [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/255185-movement-vs-entering-interesting-custserv-response.html"]here[/URL] that says it doesn't trigger off forced movement. Make of that what you will, but I find the hindering terrain discussion more interesting. [/QUOTE]
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