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DM can't get the hang of high-level play
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<blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 901587" data-attributes="member: 151"><p>Heh. Welcome to mid-levels. As a DM with a group that's worked it's way up to 20th level from 1st, I feel your pain. Insta-death spells and effects begin to be seen by CR8, and get progressively worse as level increase. </p><p></p><p>So how to counter it, and how to suggest to the DM how to deal with it? Several thoughts:</p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><strong>Buff. Then Buff some more:</strong> Seriously. There are many spells and items to help counter the effects of many powers, such as death effects, gaze attacks, rays and drains. Use them. That cleric has a library of powerful defenses. Use them.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><strong>Be more cautious:</strong> This may seem redundant. Perhaps it is. But review your tactics, and make sure you aren't taking unnecessary risks. Prepare for the worst. Always save the last Dim Door for yourself. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><strong>Change the way death effects work:</strong> hong hit on this above. With high-level play, some things occur without a save or even SR to stop it. Anything WITH a save ultimately becomes a 'don't roll a 1' situation (i.e. always a 5% chance of failure). Perhaps either adapting the epic saves rule, or changing those specific effects are in order. Instadeath spells are very unsatisfying, when you're on the recieving end. Unfortunately, the game assumes their use.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><strong>Modify many of the monsters/threats that PCs encounter:</strong> A tough one. Standard D&D play assumes a certain amount of magic items, access to certain spells, and a certain level of tactical abstraction...in other words, death is an assumed part of play; that's why you have the Raise, Reincarnate and Resurrect spells available. The Bodak, for example, is terrifying if you face it early, but silly at higher levels, just like a ghast is, 5 levels earlier than that and a beholder will be 5 levels later. But understand that 'de-clawing' such creatures can lead to a lot of things spiralling out of control, and need to be considered for campaign balance.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><strong>Compromise:</strong> Remove certain spells and associated effects from the game, and retool it. Remove 'slay living' and 'finger of death', and make sure monsters like beholders can't do it, either. But understand that many monsters will need to be re-evaulated in terms of CR/EL when doing so.<br /> [/list=1] <br /> <br /> The problem, put simply, is that higher level play can turn things on their ear, and sometimes strectch credibility to the breaking point. Higher level play in D&D is neither better nor worse than lower level play, but it is DIFFERENT. Challenges need to move in other directions, particularly if you want to move away from many of the standard insta-death threats. <br /> <br /> Another thing to consider is how certain classes or characters may be devalued by the change in certain aspects of the game. Characters like the monk with good saves, for example, will lose something, if the saves are no longer as useful. Many spells will gain or lose in power and utility, depending on what you change.<br /> <br /> You might advise the DM to look ahead at what's coming, and decide what to do. Spells like Force Cube, Time Stop, Imprisonment and Maze are coming...and they're doozies. Never mind the high-level beasties to face. It's a razor's edge to walk, and you may consider retooling the game or starting fresh to reset certain rules from day one, to prevent the issues you're hitting now.</li> </ol></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WizarDru, post: 901587, member: 151"] Heh. Welcome to mid-levels. As a DM with a group that's worked it's way up to 20th level from 1st, I feel your pain. Insta-death spells and effects begin to be seen by CR8, and get progressively worse as level increase. So how to counter it, and how to suggest to the DM how to deal with it? Several thoughts: [list=1] [*][b]Buff. Then Buff some more:[/b] Seriously. There are many spells and items to help counter the effects of many powers, such as death effects, gaze attacks, rays and drains. Use them. That cleric has a library of powerful defenses. Use them. [*][b]Be more cautious:[/b] This may seem redundant. Perhaps it is. But review your tactics, and make sure you aren't taking unnecessary risks. Prepare for the worst. Always save the last Dim Door for yourself. :) [*][b]Change the way death effects work:[/b] hong hit on this above. With high-level play, some things occur without a save or even SR to stop it. Anything WITH a save ultimately becomes a 'don't roll a 1' situation (i.e. always a 5% chance of failure). Perhaps either adapting the epic saves rule, or changing those specific effects are in order. Instadeath spells are very unsatisfying, when you're on the recieving end. Unfortunately, the game assumes their use. [*][b]Modify many of the monsters/threats that PCs encounter:[/b] A tough one. Standard D&D play assumes a certain amount of magic items, access to certain spells, and a certain level of tactical abstraction...in other words, death is an assumed part of play; that's why you have the Raise, Reincarnate and Resurrect spells available. The Bodak, for example, is terrifying if you face it early, but silly at higher levels, just like a ghast is, 5 levels earlier than that and a beholder will be 5 levels later. But understand that 'de-clawing' such creatures can lead to a lot of things spiralling out of control, and need to be considered for campaign balance. [*][b]Compromise:[/b] Remove certain spells and associated effects from the game, and retool it. Remove 'slay living' and 'finger of death', and make sure monsters like beholders can't do it, either. But understand that many monsters will need to be re-evaulated in terms of CR/EL when doing so. [/list=1] The problem, put simply, is that higher level play can turn things on their ear, and sometimes strectch credibility to the breaking point. Higher level play in D&D is neither better nor worse than lower level play, but it is DIFFERENT. Challenges need to move in other directions, particularly if you want to move away from many of the standard insta-death threats. Another thing to consider is how certain classes or characters may be devalued by the change in certain aspects of the game. Characters like the monk with good saves, for example, will lose something, if the saves are no longer as useful. Many spells will gain or lose in power and utility, depending on what you change. You might advise the DM to look ahead at what's coming, and decide what to do. Spells like Force Cube, Time Stop, Imprisonment and Maze are coming...and they're doozies. Never mind the high-level beasties to face. It's a razor's edge to walk, and you may consider retooling the game or starting fresh to reset certain rules from day one, to prevent the issues you're hitting now.[/list] [/QUOTE]
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