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Do We Really Need Half-Elves and Half-Orcs?
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7533881" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>Let’s set semantics aside because we obviously view the word “shoehorn” differently.</p><p></p><p>Do you see the difference between saying “hey guess what....gnomes exist on Athas and always have” and “this gnome is actually a human that was changed by the Pristine Tower”? Or the difference between “in the city of Ur Draxa, there are a few gnomes who actually survived Nibenay’s pogrom, and there are rumors that some of the other races thought extinct may have been preserved by Borys for some nefarious purpose” and “this gnome is actually a sub-race of the halfling”? </p><p></p><p>Do these all seem equally jarring to the setting? It seems a matter of degree, no? Like, blowing your pinky toe off and getting shot in the head are both gunshot wounds, but we all know the difference. </p><p></p><p>Let’s go back to the Dray? How do you feel about their addition to the Dark Sun setting? And then about Dragonborn subbing for Dray in 4E? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I’m not. I’ll ask you to read again what I said.</p><p></p><p>I agree that players can make changes. For me, it’s an easy decision to not play a race that’s not a default part of a setting. I have no problem with that myself. But not all players are like me. For some players, restrictions are actually helpful. For others, they’re not.</p><p></p><p>So sometimes, it may be easier for the DM to make a change than it is for the player. That’s really all I’m saying. </p><p></p><p>Regarding the settings themselves, my comment is by no means an absolute. I’m sure there are examples we could come up with where adding a race is fundamentally disruptive. I’m sure it’s possible. But I also expect it’s less likely than most claim. Athas doesn’t fall apart if there’s a PC gnome. The Domains of Dread are noless scary with a Dragonborn. And so on. </p><p></p><p>My point being, what makes a setting unique is more than the races it does or doesn’t include. If all there is to a setting is a list of races that aren’t allowed, then yeah, I’d say the setting isn’t really that unique. Does that mean it’s badwrongfun? Not really. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Everyone wants to have fun, sure. But people make compromises. You’re advocating for exactly that, so this weird “everyone’s selfish” idea seems odd. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I’m not saying the DM is bad. I’m saying e should see if there’s another way to deal with it. </p><p></p><p>And as for “other games”, maybe that’s not something that applies to everyone. For me, I only play with my friends. The same group every time, with occasional additions or absences. So we all want to play....but we also all want to play together. Perhaps that’s why I don’t share that “everyone’s selfish” view? </p><p></p><p>If I did something that made one of my players not want to play, in my mind, I’ve messed up. This doesn’t apply to all circumstances, but that’s how I’d feel. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. I’ve said this already. </p><p></p><p>Players should consider making a change. </p><p></p><p>So can DMs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My example was not meant to be absolute. Some players do just look at what’s allowed and pick. That’s not an insult. Unless you think that’s somehow wrong to do? Some players aren’t invested in a setting. The DM may be psyched for it, and maybe some of his players are, too, and they spend time making characters strongly tied to the setting. Then another player just picks based on what’s allowed. He says “human fighter” and the character he comes up with could exist in pretty much any setting.</p><p></p><p>There’s nothing wrong with that, honestly. But if I have a choice between a character whose player has given a lot of thought to his character even if it seems not to fit in some way, or a character who fits and then there’s nothing more...then I have a hard time imagining wanting to go with the one who fits. It just seems like a lesser priority to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I never said any players are fragile. I realize that you’re inferring a lot from what I’m actually saying, but please don’t put words in my mouth.</p><p></p><p>Got any examples you can think of that support your view? Gnomes in Athas, Dragonborn in Oerth, Orcs in Krynn? Anything?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 7533881, member: 6785785"] Let’s set semantics aside because we obviously view the word “shoehorn” differently. Do you see the difference between saying “hey guess what....gnomes exist on Athas and always have” and “this gnome is actually a human that was changed by the Pristine Tower”? Or the difference between “in the city of Ur Draxa, there are a few gnomes who actually survived Nibenay’s pogrom, and there are rumors that some of the other races thought extinct may have been preserved by Borys for some nefarious purpose” and “this gnome is actually a sub-race of the halfling”? Do these all seem equally jarring to the setting? It seems a matter of degree, no? Like, blowing your pinky toe off and getting shot in the head are both gunshot wounds, but we all know the difference. Let’s go back to the Dray? How do you feel about their addition to the Dark Sun setting? And then about Dragonborn subbing for Dray in 4E? No, I’m not. I’ll ask you to read again what I said. I agree that players can make changes. For me, it’s an easy decision to not play a race that’s not a default part of a setting. I have no problem with that myself. But not all players are like me. For some players, restrictions are actually helpful. For others, they’re not. So sometimes, it may be easier for the DM to make a change than it is for the player. That’s really all I’m saying. Regarding the settings themselves, my comment is by no means an absolute. I’m sure there are examples we could come up with where adding a race is fundamentally disruptive. I’m sure it’s possible. But I also expect it’s less likely than most claim. Athas doesn’t fall apart if there’s a PC gnome. The Domains of Dread are noless scary with a Dragonborn. And so on. My point being, what makes a setting unique is more than the races it does or doesn’t include. If all there is to a setting is a list of races that aren’t allowed, then yeah, I’d say the setting isn’t really that unique. Does that mean it’s badwrongfun? Not really. Everyone wants to have fun, sure. But people make compromises. You’re advocating for exactly that, so this weird “everyone’s selfish” idea seems odd. No, I’m not saying the DM is bad. I’m saying e should see if there’s another way to deal with it. And as for “other games”, maybe that’s not something that applies to everyone. For me, I only play with my friends. The same group every time, with occasional additions or absences. So we all want to play....but we also all want to play together. Perhaps that’s why I don’t share that “everyone’s selfish” view? If I did something that made one of my players not want to play, in my mind, I’ve messed up. This doesn’t apply to all circumstances, but that’s how I’d feel. Yes. I’ve said this already. Players should consider making a change. So can DMs. My example was not meant to be absolute. Some players do just look at what’s allowed and pick. That’s not an insult. Unless you think that’s somehow wrong to do? Some players aren’t invested in a setting. The DM may be psyched for it, and maybe some of his players are, too, and they spend time making characters strongly tied to the setting. Then another player just picks based on what’s allowed. He says “human fighter” and the character he comes up with could exist in pretty much any setting. There’s nothing wrong with that, honestly. But if I have a choice between a character whose player has given a lot of thought to his character even if it seems not to fit in some way, or a character who fits and then there’s nothing more...then I have a hard time imagining wanting to go with the one who fits. It just seems like a lesser priority to me. I never said any players are fragile. I realize that you’re inferring a lot from what I’m actually saying, but please don’t put words in my mouth. Got any examples you can think of that support your view? Gnomes in Athas, Dragonborn in Oerth, Orcs in Krynn? Anything? [/QUOTE]
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