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<blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 7380438" data-attributes="member: 5100"><p>I think I get what you're saying, but I don't entirely agree. I think one advantage a lot of older games had is that they were created by folks who liked statistics and nerdly pursuits in the vein of military history. I'm not sure they did much more play testing than modern games, but the probabilities did a good job of modeling what they were intended to model (at least, close enough for playability) and were mathematically transparent, for the most part -- the dependencies only went one layer deep. Some newer games either go the "indy" route of heavily favoring the narrative over gamism or simulationism or try to "fix" the gaps in the shallow/transparent math of older systems. 3.0/3.5 has multiple layers of math that are rather interdependent, for good or ill. Fate uses a much bigger hand wave in, effectively, saying "Characters who are exceptional in something should succeed in exceptional tasks, most of the time," and built their bell curve from there -- though they're more focused on the narrative than anything else. There are also some (Savage Worlds, Genesys) that look quite good, but don't scratch an itch I have -- I think.</p><p></p><p>There are a lot of other modern games that I haven't played because, quite frankly, they're crap and don't bring anything to the table beyond the publisher's vanity. I would agree that they look neither well tested nor grounded in good math.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I played an afternoon of Phoenix Command, at a con, once. It was enjoyable, but pretty much cured me of my nascent fetishism with reality. I managed to get shot in the face with a shotgun slug. Actually, I know that my mouth was open, because it exited the back of my head without harming the front. My character survived the damage, itself. The immediate shock didn't kill him, either. Nor did the shock after half a second. Or one second. Nope. He bled out for a full two seconds before his body finally shut down from shock. I didn't hate the experience, by any means. But, I knew I'd never be able to compete with that level of realism in my own system or tweaking another. I also knew that I wanted the game to move a bit faster and for heroics to be possible. So.... I learned, right there, that there was a difference between realism and verisimilitude (though I didn't know the word, at the time) and that what I really wanted was verisimilitude.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I've played one session of GURPS and it was probably the single worst gaming experience I've had. The GM was well respected, so I don't think it was him. I just hated the system. Can't tell you why, anymore.</p><p></p><p></p><p>3E brought me back to D&D because it looked to fix some of the things that drove me away from AD&D -- class lock-in, mismatched mechanics (why was grapple D%, but combat D20?), little-to-no ability to customize your PC beyond class. It did deliver on those, but caused its own set of problems. </p><p></p><p>I cannot tell you how much I grew to hate the feat treadmill and the entire "char ops" mentality. I'm all for having enough command of the rules to not make stupid characters. I'm just not a fan of numbers over personality. Fortunately, my group is largely of the same mind and, over the years, a couple of short-term players have been dubbed "Numbers" and "Super Numbers" by the other players because there wasn't any actual character there.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercule, post: 7380438, member: 5100"] I think I get what you're saying, but I don't entirely agree. I think one advantage a lot of older games had is that they were created by folks who liked statistics and nerdly pursuits in the vein of military history. I'm not sure they did much more play testing than modern games, but the probabilities did a good job of modeling what they were intended to model (at least, close enough for playability) and were mathematically transparent, for the most part -- the dependencies only went one layer deep. Some newer games either go the "indy" route of heavily favoring the narrative over gamism or simulationism or try to "fix" the gaps in the shallow/transparent math of older systems. 3.0/3.5 has multiple layers of math that are rather interdependent, for good or ill. Fate uses a much bigger hand wave in, effectively, saying "Characters who are exceptional in something should succeed in exceptional tasks, most of the time," and built their bell curve from there -- though they're more focused on the narrative than anything else. There are also some (Savage Worlds, Genesys) that look quite good, but don't scratch an itch I have -- I think. There are a lot of other modern games that I haven't played because, quite frankly, they're crap and don't bring anything to the table beyond the publisher's vanity. I would agree that they look neither well tested nor grounded in good math. I played an afternoon of Phoenix Command, at a con, once. It was enjoyable, but pretty much cured me of my nascent fetishism with reality. I managed to get shot in the face with a shotgun slug. Actually, I know that my mouth was open, because it exited the back of my head without harming the front. My character survived the damage, itself. The immediate shock didn't kill him, either. Nor did the shock after half a second. Or one second. Nope. He bled out for a full two seconds before his body finally shut down from shock. I didn't hate the experience, by any means. But, I knew I'd never be able to compete with that level of realism in my own system or tweaking another. I also knew that I wanted the game to move a bit faster and for heroics to be possible. So.... I learned, right there, that there was a difference between realism and verisimilitude (though I didn't know the word, at the time) and that what I really wanted was verisimilitude. I've played one session of GURPS and it was probably the single worst gaming experience I've had. The GM was well respected, so I don't think it was him. I just hated the system. Can't tell you why, anymore. 3E brought me back to D&D because it looked to fix some of the things that drove me away from AD&D -- class lock-in, mismatched mechanics (why was grapple D%, but combat D20?), little-to-no ability to customize your PC beyond class. It did deliver on those, but caused its own set of problems. I cannot tell you how much I grew to hate the feat treadmill and the entire "char ops" mentality. I'm all for having enough command of the rules to not make stupid characters. I'm just not a fan of numbers over personality. Fortunately, my group is largely of the same mind and, over the years, a couple of short-term players have been dubbed "Numbers" and "Super Numbers" by the other players because there wasn't any actual character there. [/QUOTE]
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