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Does OA make Fighters better martial artists than Monks?
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<blockquote data-quote="DM_Matt" data-source="post: 6397" data-attributes="member: 1213"><p>The fact that all the additional marital arts options in OA are in feat form gives me the feeling that Fighters might be able to outshine Monks in martial arts. What is even more disturbing is the idea of a character who takes a level or two in monk and then pursues the fighter route for the rest of their career.</p><p></p><p>A human monk gets 8 feats + 4 set Bonus feats by L20. A human fighter gets 20 feats by 20th level. A Monk2/Fighter18 gets 19+3 set bonus feats and evasion. These differeces are huge. Many more moves, way earlier.</p><p></p><p>So what does the monk have in return? A few nifty supernatural abilities...fine. Not related to martial arts fighting, though, mostly.</p><p></p><p>Better movement...Ganted.</p><p>More attacks: No more than one until very high level. But that one additonal attack beyond that</p><p>Better Saves...Fine, but not THAT MA-related</p><p></p><p>Increased unarmed damage...This scales up slower than the Fighter's ability to get better and better enchanted gauntlets (or even just a singe guantlet). The fighter could keep adding energy damage and easily keep up. Granted, the monk can get other items, but once the stat boosters, which are less powerful than magical weapons (mostly) are taken care of, monks have feww things to do with their money on, since they dont use enchanted weapons or armor OR Spell storing devices (wands, staffs, rods, potions, scrolls). They can get the Ki Straps a little earlier, but that doesnt make that much of a difference in the long run.</p><p></p><p>Wis Bonus to AC w/o armor and a little bit of extra AC based on level. the fighter can make it up easily with a chain shirt that is gradually enchanted, and it is able to have various special abilities as well. Also, a fighter that starts out as a monk gets the wisdom bonus anyway, if that + the restrictions on max dex bonus make it better than the chain shirt. He can switch over to the armor when he get sufficiently enchanted armor.</p><p></p><p>The real issue here is that the quickly-fallen monk gets 10 MORE FEATS TO WORK WITH, not to mention the ability to properly wield any weapon at full potential and more hp.</p><p></p><p>Look at the 5 MA styles in the OA book. Assuming that the chart (and not the text) is the correct version, one can never be attained in 20 levels by a single-class monk, and tow can only be atained if said monk is human. The feats just are not there.</p><p></p><p>Besides balance, style is important as well. The PHB monk is a hard-style monk. He makes sense as a practicioner of say, Kung Fu or Karate. But if one wishes to make, for example, a Ju Jitsu monk, or another soft style art, (Throws, responses to attacks, pressure points), you need LOTS of feats.</p><p></p><p>Now lets try to construct such a monk to demonstrate my point. This will also show what the difference in numbers of feats will do. In order to reach the point of doing generally al lthe types of things that he intends to focus on, he should have:</p><p></p><p>Improved Unarmed Strike</p><p>Stunning Fist</p><p>Deflect Arrows </p><p>Falling Star Strike</p><p>Dodge</p><p>Combat Reflexes</p><p>Expertise </p><p>Improved Trip</p><p>Improved Disarm</p><p>Grappling Block</p><p>Defensive Throw</p><p>Improved Grapple</p><p></p><p>To really complete things, he should eventually get:</p><p>Expert Tactician</p><p>Great Throw</p><p>Choke Hold</p><p>Freezing the Lifeblood</p><p>Pain Touch</p><p></p><p></p><p>Now a monk would not complete the basic set her euntil 18th level as a human, or never if not.</p><p></p><p>A Monk2/Fighter6 will complete that list...thats half the time. And then they get 13 more feats by the time its over, 10 more by the time that the streight monk finishes the first list. That means completing all the mentioned feats and adding five more by the time that the 20 levels are complete.</p><p></p><p>This monk will already have Mighty Works Mastery 1 (of 2), granting a +2 AC when full attacking unarmed. With those addiitonal feats, he can get Meditation of War Mastery and The Gentle Way Mastery as well by level 20 by taking Power Attack, Fists of Iron, Iron Will, Prone Attack, and Blind Fight. He also gets free weapon focus, a supernatural immobility ability, and +2 to all pressure point DCs. By that time, his weapon and armor will have long outstripped the monk as well.</p><p></p><p>SO th eproblem is two-fold:</p><p></p><p>1. A monk that is mostly fighter will be a far better (and more interesting) martial artist than a pure monk.</p><p>2. Many fighting styles for monks just are not practical without fighter levels.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DM_Matt, post: 6397, member: 1213"] The fact that all the additional marital arts options in OA are in feat form gives me the feeling that Fighters might be able to outshine Monks in martial arts. What is even more disturbing is the idea of a character who takes a level or two in monk and then pursues the fighter route for the rest of their career. A human monk gets 8 feats + 4 set Bonus feats by L20. A human fighter gets 20 feats by 20th level. A Monk2/Fighter18 gets 19+3 set bonus feats and evasion. These differeces are huge. Many more moves, way earlier. So what does the monk have in return? A few nifty supernatural abilities...fine. Not related to martial arts fighting, though, mostly. Better movement...Ganted. More attacks: No more than one until very high level. But that one additonal attack beyond that Better Saves...Fine, but not THAT MA-related Increased unarmed damage...This scales up slower than the Fighter's ability to get better and better enchanted gauntlets (or even just a singe guantlet). The fighter could keep adding energy damage and easily keep up. Granted, the monk can get other items, but once the stat boosters, which are less powerful than magical weapons (mostly) are taken care of, monks have feww things to do with their money on, since they dont use enchanted weapons or armor OR Spell storing devices (wands, staffs, rods, potions, scrolls). They can get the Ki Straps a little earlier, but that doesnt make that much of a difference in the long run. Wis Bonus to AC w/o armor and a little bit of extra AC based on level. the fighter can make it up easily with a chain shirt that is gradually enchanted, and it is able to have various special abilities as well. Also, a fighter that starts out as a monk gets the wisdom bonus anyway, if that + the restrictions on max dex bonus make it better than the chain shirt. He can switch over to the armor when he get sufficiently enchanted armor. The real issue here is that the quickly-fallen monk gets 10 MORE FEATS TO WORK WITH, not to mention the ability to properly wield any weapon at full potential and more hp. Look at the 5 MA styles in the OA book. Assuming that the chart (and not the text) is the correct version, one can never be attained in 20 levels by a single-class monk, and tow can only be atained if said monk is human. The feats just are not there. Besides balance, style is important as well. The PHB monk is a hard-style monk. He makes sense as a practicioner of say, Kung Fu or Karate. But if one wishes to make, for example, a Ju Jitsu monk, or another soft style art, (Throws, responses to attacks, pressure points), you need LOTS of feats. Now lets try to construct such a monk to demonstrate my point. This will also show what the difference in numbers of feats will do. In order to reach the point of doing generally al lthe types of things that he intends to focus on, he should have: Improved Unarmed Strike Stunning Fist Deflect Arrows Falling Star Strike Dodge Combat Reflexes Expertise Improved Trip Improved Disarm Grappling Block Defensive Throw Improved Grapple To really complete things, he should eventually get: Expert Tactician Great Throw Choke Hold Freezing the Lifeblood Pain Touch Now a monk would not complete the basic set her euntil 18th level as a human, or never if not. A Monk2/Fighter6 will complete that list...thats half the time. And then they get 13 more feats by the time its over, 10 more by the time that the streight monk finishes the first list. That means completing all the mentioned feats and adding five more by the time that the 20 levels are complete. This monk will already have Mighty Works Mastery 1 (of 2), granting a +2 AC when full attacking unarmed. With those addiitonal feats, he can get Meditation of War Mastery and The Gentle Way Mastery as well by level 20 by taking Power Attack, Fists of Iron, Iron Will, Prone Attack, and Blind Fight. He also gets free weapon focus, a supernatural immobility ability, and +2 to all pressure point DCs. By that time, his weapon and armor will have long outstripped the monk as well. SO th eproblem is two-fold: 1. A monk that is mostly fighter will be a far better (and more interesting) martial artist than a pure monk. 2. Many fighting styles for monks just are not practical without fighter levels. [/QUOTE]
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Does OA make Fighters better martial artists than Monks?
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