Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Don't Lose The Forest For The Trees
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Jay Verkuilen" data-source="post: 7733028" data-attributes="member: 6873517"><p>Yes, that's how it works I believe. Chess is a puzzle, strictly speaking, because it can be solved with <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_induction" target="_blank">backward induction</a>. Computationally speaking backward induction is not practical on chess and go, and likely never will be (to my knowledge), but there actually is an answer as to whether white or black wins, given optimal play. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The role of randomness in this set of terminology is tricky but randomness can be incorporated into <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory" target="_blank">decision theory</a> and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory" target="_blank">game theory</a>. Here I'm using these terms in their technical senses; to be clear I'll say "mathematical game theory" henceforth. As I recall, backgammon is essentially a race between players... been a while since I played it. However, it does have an aspect of strategy and it clearly has a versus (or zero-sum) aspect. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think Diplomacy would be considered a game in the proposed sense. The problem I have with the proposed terminology is that in mathematical game theory one thinks about both cooperation and competition. The proposed terminology seems to exclude cooperative games, for instance, which are studied in mathematical game theory alongside competitive ones. Indeed many games have aspects of both. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do agree that the distinctions can be helpful, although I'm not entirely sure that established terminology from mathematical game theory wouldn't be easier. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Huh, I'll trust you on this, I don't really know Wittgenstein in detail. I do know that I think the notion of "family resemblance" makes a great deal of sense for much of the terminology here.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jay Verkuilen, post: 7733028, member: 6873517"] Yes, that's how it works I believe. Chess is a puzzle, strictly speaking, because it can be solved with [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_induction"]backward induction[/URL]. Computationally speaking backward induction is not practical on chess and go, and likely never will be (to my knowledge), but there actually is an answer as to whether white or black wins, given optimal play. The role of randomness in this set of terminology is tricky but randomness can be incorporated into [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory"]decision theory[/URL] and [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory"]game theory[/URL]. Here I'm using these terms in their technical senses; to be clear I'll say "mathematical game theory" henceforth. As I recall, backgammon is essentially a race between players... been a while since I played it. However, it does have an aspect of strategy and it clearly has a versus (or zero-sum) aspect. I think Diplomacy would be considered a game in the proposed sense. The problem I have with the proposed terminology is that in mathematical game theory one thinks about both cooperation and competition. The proposed terminology seems to exclude cooperative games, for instance, which are studied in mathematical game theory alongside competitive ones. Indeed many games have aspects of both. I do agree that the distinctions can be helpful, although I'm not entirely sure that established terminology from mathematical game theory wouldn't be easier. Huh, I'll trust you on this, I don't really know Wittgenstein in detail. I do know that I think the notion of "family resemblance" makes a great deal of sense for much of the terminology here. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Don't Lose The Forest For The Trees
Top