Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Dungeon layout, map flow and old school game design
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="grodog" data-source="post: 2957945" data-attributes="member: 1613"><p>Melan, it seems that some folks find it difficult to separate the encounters from the maps, per your original intent: whether because the maps influence the encounters, they hide encounters too effectively, etc. Perhaps you need to provide some more suggestions on how the dungeon environment plays an <em>active role</em> in the game, rather than a passive one: the mapping process, the varied environmental challenges excemplified by Roger Musson's "The Dungeon Architect" articles from White Dwarf or some of Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" columns about Greyhawk Castle's development, Rob Kuntz's brilliant dungeon design in the Maze of Zayene #1 Prisoners of the Maze, etc. Some of those interesting design recommendations include:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">use of the vertical dimension</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">lots of interlevel movement; voluntarily via stairwells, trapdoors, sloping tunnels, etc., and involuntarily via pits, teleporters, chutes, sloping tunnels that are very hard to detect, etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">use of challenges that allow PCs to learn the dungeon environment from their successes and mistakes; some good examples of this occur in Scott Casper's Greyhawk Castle gaming fiction written @ <a href="http://kinazar.com/SouthProv/viewtopic.php?t=336&start=0" target="_blank">http://kinazar.com/SouthProv/viewtopic.php?t=336&start=0</a> (down at the moment, but will likely be up again soon)</li> </ul><p></p><p>If the players need to be educated about the differences evident in this kind of Dungeon vs. dungeon (to borrow Everaux's phrase, or a dungeon vs. a lair, as some folks use the terms), there's nothing wrong with teaching them through play how to approach the environment. That way the players can learn the paradigm, and they can develop their PCs appropriately (in 3.x, more emphasis on Spot, Search, etc., perhaps). As an example, some folks commented over in Quasqueton's Tomb of Horrors design thread that putting secret doors in a pit was just beyond evil: who would ever think to look there? Well, after the PCs have found one, that should certainly alert them to the possibility that more may exist. If you're a kind DM, perhaps you when an (AD&D) elf falls down into a pit, he detects a concealed door there, or the PCs find a secret door in a pit that's already been opened by other denizens. Then, in the future, they know to check for these kinds of features/opportunities. Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" article entitled "Lesson #8: Ain't it the Pits? - A Trap for all Occasions" from Dragon # 294 is a great exemplar of this principle (and some of the posts in Scott Casper's GHC fiction illustrate this well, too): see <a href="http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html" target="_blank">http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html</a> for others.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="grodog, post: 2957945, member: 1613"] Melan, it seems that some folks find it difficult to separate the encounters from the maps, per your original intent: whether because the maps influence the encounters, they hide encounters too effectively, etc. Perhaps you need to provide some more suggestions on how the dungeon environment plays an [i]active role[/i] in the game, rather than a passive one: the mapping process, the varied environmental challenges excemplified by Roger Musson's "The Dungeon Architect" articles from White Dwarf or some of Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" columns about Greyhawk Castle's development, Rob Kuntz's brilliant dungeon design in the Maze of Zayene #1 Prisoners of the Maze, etc. Some of those interesting design recommendations include: [list] [*]use of the vertical dimension [*]lots of interlevel movement; voluntarily via stairwells, trapdoors, sloping tunnels, etc., and involuntarily via pits, teleporters, chutes, sloping tunnels that are very hard to detect, etc. [*]use of challenges that allow PCs to learn the dungeon environment from their successes and mistakes; some good examples of this occur in Scott Casper's Greyhawk Castle gaming fiction written @ [url]http://kinazar.com/SouthProv/viewtopic.php?t=336&start=0[/url] (down at the moment, but will likely be up again soon)[/list] If the players need to be educated about the differences evident in this kind of Dungeon vs. dungeon (to borrow Everaux's phrase, or a dungeon vs. a lair, as some folks use the terms), there's nothing wrong with teaching them through play how to approach the environment. That way the players can learn the paradigm, and they can develop their PCs appropriately (in 3.x, more emphasis on Spot, Search, etc., perhaps). As an example, some folks commented over in Quasqueton's Tomb of Horrors design thread that putting secret doors in a pit was just beyond evil: who would ever think to look there? Well, after the PCs have found one, that should certainly alert them to the possibility that more may exist. If you're a kind DM, perhaps you when an (AD&D) elf falls down into a pit, he detects a concealed door there, or the PCs find a secret door in a pit that's already been opened by other denizens. Then, in the future, they know to check for these kinds of features/opportunities. Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" article entitled "Lesson #8: Ain't it the Pits? - A Trap for all Occasions" from Dragon # 294 is a great exemplar of this principle (and some of the posts in Scott Casper's GHC fiction illustrate this well, too): see [url]http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html[/url] for others. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Dungeon layout, map flow and old school game design
Top