Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Dungeon layout, map flow and old school game design
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="T. Foster" data-source="post: 2963737" data-attributes="member: 16574"><p>Because it would be bad tactical play -- if you're taking the time to fully dissect every monster then you're wasting time (on both a player level and character level), exposing yourself to many more wandering monster checks (thus, presumably, meaning more monsters you'll have to dissect, leading to more time wasted, and more wandering moster checks...), and using up your resources in a way that isn't likely to return significant rewards (better to use them accomplishing things that you <em>know</em> are going to get you treasure). Sure, if you chose to you could spend an entire session in one room killing every monster that came in and dissecting it in hopes of finding a gem in its gullet, not exploring anything and not accomplishing any goals (whether DM or self-imposed), but that would be a very lame and unsatisfying sort of play (on both a player-level and character-level) and I can't imagine why anyone would actually choose it. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, because doing so would be bad play -- a completely inefficient use of time (real- or game-) and resources. If given the choice to go down to level 3 to fight some level-appropriate monsters and gain some level-appropriate treasures and you choose instead to stay on level one and spend 2 game-weeks (and perhaps as much as a full game-session or two) strip-mining the entire place on the off-chance that you might find a hidden "easter egg" treasure of a few hundred SP (which you'll only get 1/3 XP value for anyway, since it's a dungeon level 1 treasure and you're 3rd level) that's certainly your prerogative, but's it's very bad play, both on the character-advancement level and on the players-having-an-interesting-time-at-the-table level, and it's not the DM's fault, it's yours. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that this would be stupid and annoying, which is why you shouldn't do it (at least in D&D -- can't speak for Wolfenstein 3-D). Time and resource management and an ability to set goals and stick to them without becoming distracted by red-herrings and minutiate (and an insatiable desire to accurately map every inch of the level, or to receover every copper piece of potential treasure, are both unquestionably minutiae) are among the key elements of skillful D&D play (see Gygax's essay on "Successful Adventuring" in the back of the 1E PH), and the way the DM tests these skills is by presenting opportunities for the players to make good and bad decisions in these areas -- presenting possible distractions, red herrings, and fool's tasks that offer little reward for much effort and waste time and resources, thus preventing them from being able to accomplish the more worthwhile tasks they originally set out to. The lure of potential treasures that can only be recovered with much time and effort, so much that it probably outweighs the value of the treasure and precludes the recovery of other treasure, is every bit as much a test of player skill as any monster, trap, or puzzle. And the appropriate response to such tests isn't to blame the DM for including them and condemn them as bad design but rather to recognize them for what they are and not be taken in by them.</p><p></p><p>On a slightly different subject from the same post: </p><p></p><p></p><p>Who says that <em>every</em> blank spot is a secret room or that the dungeon doesn't have necessary structural supports even with a hidden room here and there? Or that there <em>aren't</em> secret rooms off the edge of the map? (Perhaps the DM mapped the level on a 5 squares/inch grid and made it look like a "complete" level at 4 squares/inch but has secret rooms in the 'extra' squares off the 'edge' of the 4x4 sheet -- this is actually a clever trick which I think I might use! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> ). And I still fail to see how this represents metagaming in any way if we assume that the characters, as well as the players, are making maps of the level.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="T. Foster, post: 2963737, member: 16574"] Because it would be bad tactical play -- if you're taking the time to fully dissect every monster then you're wasting time (on both a player level and character level), exposing yourself to many more wandering monster checks (thus, presumably, meaning more monsters you'll have to dissect, leading to more time wasted, and more wandering moster checks...), and using up your resources in a way that isn't likely to return significant rewards (better to use them accomplishing things that you [i]know[/i] are going to get you treasure). Sure, if you chose to you could spend an entire session in one room killing every monster that came in and dissecting it in hopes of finding a gem in its gullet, not exploring anything and not accomplishing any goals (whether DM or self-imposed), but that would be a very lame and unsatisfying sort of play (on both a player-level and character-level) and I can't imagine why anyone would actually choose it. Again, because doing so would be bad play -- a completely inefficient use of time (real- or game-) and resources. If given the choice to go down to level 3 to fight some level-appropriate monsters and gain some level-appropriate treasures and you choose instead to stay on level one and spend 2 game-weeks (and perhaps as much as a full game-session or two) strip-mining the entire place on the off-chance that you might find a hidden "easter egg" treasure of a few hundred SP (which you'll only get 1/3 XP value for anyway, since it's a dungeon level 1 treasure and you're 3rd level) that's certainly your prerogative, but's it's very bad play, both on the character-advancement level and on the players-having-an-interesting-time-at-the-table level, and it's not the DM's fault, it's yours. I agree that this would be stupid and annoying, which is why you shouldn't do it (at least in D&D -- can't speak for Wolfenstein 3-D). Time and resource management and an ability to set goals and stick to them without becoming distracted by red-herrings and minutiate (and an insatiable desire to accurately map every inch of the level, or to receover every copper piece of potential treasure, are both unquestionably minutiae) are among the key elements of skillful D&D play (see Gygax's essay on "Successful Adventuring" in the back of the 1E PH), and the way the DM tests these skills is by presenting opportunities for the players to make good and bad decisions in these areas -- presenting possible distractions, red herrings, and fool's tasks that offer little reward for much effort and waste time and resources, thus preventing them from being able to accomplish the more worthwhile tasks they originally set out to. The lure of potential treasures that can only be recovered with much time and effort, so much that it probably outweighs the value of the treasure and precludes the recovery of other treasure, is every bit as much a test of player skill as any monster, trap, or puzzle. And the appropriate response to such tests isn't to blame the DM for including them and condemn them as bad design but rather to recognize them for what they are and not be taken in by them. On a slightly different subject from the same post: Who says that [i]every[/i] blank spot is a secret room or that the dungeon doesn't have necessary structural supports even with a hidden room here and there? Or that there [i]aren't[/i] secret rooms off the edge of the map? (Perhaps the DM mapped the level on a 5 squares/inch grid and made it look like a "complete" level at 4 squares/inch but has secret rooms in the 'extra' squares off the 'edge' of the 4x4 sheet -- this is actually a clever trick which I think I might use! :) ). And I still fail to see how this represents metagaming in any way if we assume that the characters, as well as the players, are making maps of the level. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Dungeon layout, map flow and old school game design
Top