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Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.
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<blockquote data-quote="Bobbum Man" data-source="post: 5927516" data-attributes="member: 6688219"><p>Yeah....Justin Alexander is really good at taking a big, smelly, passive-aggressive asparagus piss on people who are having fun doing things he doesn't like. He even managed to wrap his trolling up in a very convincing shroud of rhetoric. Make no mistake though, the ONLY reason the whole dissociated mechanics idea came around was so people would have a superficially reasonable argument when claiming that 4E players aren't really "role-playing" when their Fighter uses a daily power.</p><p></p><p>Dissociated mechanics is a b.s. metric to judge roleplaying on and here's why:</p><p></p><p>1) What constitutes "role-playing" has never had a unanimously agreed upon definition. Some people think that games like Fiasco don't count because they don't have GM's. But whatever...let's pretend that it's solely down to interacting with the game world through the eyes on one's character...that brings us to:</p><p></p><p>2) Every role-playing game game out there has dissociated mechanics somewhere. Every. Single. One. At least some level of abstraction is necessary for a game to function on a level where it can actually be played and enjoyed by people who aren't robots. </p><p></p><p>WEG Star Wars had drama points. Spirit of the Century has fate points. Say...does a madman know how many insanity points he has? What keeps a shadowrun character from taking so many cyberware enhancements that they lose all of their essence? Do they have am essence gauge on their person? And in D&D...how is it that the fighter always knows approximately how approximately how many axe blows to the face (s)he can take before dying?</p><p></p><p>What's more...I'm not a board game guy, but I'm willing to bet that someone out there can name at least one that is less dissociated than an AD&D.</p><p></p><p>3) But I guess it's all about immersion, right? Because most of our gaming sessions are poignant works of impromptu theater and salient works of true artistic merit, rather than a table full of grown men making dick and fart jokes in monty python voices. I defy someone to post an audio recording of a play session for ANY game that doesn't eventually wind up sounding like an order of the stick comic. I DEFY them. </p><p></p><p>But let's go back to the first point about role playing. We might not know exactly how to define it, but we now what the end goal is: Immersion. If someone <em>feels</em> immersed while playing a game, even a while spending a healing surge or something, are they not actually roleplaying then, despite the feeling of immersion? Are they wrong for being immersed in the game? Were they actually NOT immersed in the game? If so, can you prove what was really going on in their heads?</p><p></p><p>4)It's a silly game where players pretend to be magical elves. The Alexandrian is a skilled bull crap artist, which makes his bullying somehow look urbane rather than petty and childish, but in essence he's trying to quantify rpg mechanics in an almost academic manner, while the rest of us are sitting around a table and trying to make our friends shoot mountain dew out of their noses.</p><p></p><p>So...daily martial powers in 4E. Exactly like an amazing touchdown, or a grand slam, or a triple double, or a critical hit for that matter. There is NO real difference.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bobbum Man, post: 5927516, member: 6688219"] Yeah....Justin Alexander is really good at taking a big, smelly, passive-aggressive asparagus piss on people who are having fun doing things he doesn't like. He even managed to wrap his trolling up in a very convincing shroud of rhetoric. Make no mistake though, the ONLY reason the whole dissociated mechanics idea came around was so people would have a superficially reasonable argument when claiming that 4E players aren't really "role-playing" when their Fighter uses a daily power. Dissociated mechanics is a b.s. metric to judge roleplaying on and here's why: 1) What constitutes "role-playing" has never had a unanimously agreed upon definition. Some people think that games like Fiasco don't count because they don't have GM's. But whatever...let's pretend that it's solely down to interacting with the game world through the eyes on one's character...that brings us to: 2) Every role-playing game game out there has dissociated mechanics somewhere. Every. Single. One. At least some level of abstraction is necessary for a game to function on a level where it can actually be played and enjoyed by people who aren't robots. WEG Star Wars had drama points. Spirit of the Century has fate points. Say...does a madman know how many insanity points he has? What keeps a shadowrun character from taking so many cyberware enhancements that they lose all of their essence? Do they have am essence gauge on their person? And in D&D...how is it that the fighter always knows approximately how approximately how many axe blows to the face (s)he can take before dying? What's more...I'm not a board game guy, but I'm willing to bet that someone out there can name at least one that is less dissociated than an AD&D. 3) But I guess it's all about immersion, right? Because most of our gaming sessions are poignant works of impromptu theater and salient works of true artistic merit, rather than a table full of grown men making dick and fart jokes in monty python voices. I defy someone to post an audio recording of a play session for ANY game that doesn't eventually wind up sounding like an order of the stick comic. I DEFY them. But let's go back to the first point about role playing. We might not know exactly how to define it, but we now what the end goal is: Immersion. If someone [I]feels[/I] immersed while playing a game, even a while spending a healing surge or something, are they not actually roleplaying then, despite the feeling of immersion? Are they wrong for being immersed in the game? Were they actually NOT immersed in the game? If so, can you prove what was really going on in their heads? 4)It's a silly game where players pretend to be magical elves. The Alexandrian is a skilled bull crap artist, which makes his bullying somehow look urbane rather than petty and childish, but in essence he's trying to quantify rpg mechanics in an almost academic manner, while the rest of us are sitting around a table and trying to make our friends shoot mountain dew out of their noses. So...daily martial powers in 4E. Exactly like an amazing touchdown, or a grand slam, or a triple double, or a critical hit for that matter. There is NO real difference. [/QUOTE]
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