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Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.
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<blockquote data-quote="Campbell" data-source="post: 5927651" data-attributes="member: 16586"><p>More and more I'm convinced that the power of D&D lies in its abstractions. There's something powerful and almost primal in the quirks of D&D hit points and saves that gets lost in post AD&D games which make them function radically different in play. The abstractions inherent in the game operate optimally when when one does not bring the microscope up too closely. You're left with a more flexible game of dungeon exploration/monster murder that way.</p><p></p><p>Where I think 3e (and to a lesser extent 2e) falters is that it is D&D that takes itself too seriously. It extends the metaphor of a number of abstractions to the point where we're forced to look at things too closely. Additions like touch AC, the rejiggering of saves to serve simulation, overly specific combat maneuvers and extending the metaphor of leveling to include mundane skills push the game's abstractions to your face to the point where we stop seeing abstractions as abstractions and instead view them as objective reality. This creates a simulation about nothing that I find incredibly unsatisfying and wholly unlike AD&D. Of course for people who already viewed AD&D in a highly simulative light or wanted a bit more RM style sim this is satisfactory as long as one didn't look too hard at what they were actually simulating or didn't mind things like the trip attack fighter who trips someone on nearly every turn. I'm certainly biased - 3e is by far my least favorite edition.</p><p></p><p>4e is in many ways 3e's opposite. Instead of extending the metaphors of the game's metaphors, it embraces the power of the game's abstractions and layers more abstractions on top of it, creating the possibility for using the game for vanilla narrativist play. However, the level of abstraction in the game becomes so strong that the dungeon exploration the game was founded on becomes almost impossible to play out in 4eC. The need to step outside of the character is too jarring for a good contingent to deal with. My experience with 4e is that it functions best for groups who had long ago left the typical D&D core story behind for more heroic/mythic tropes.</p><p></p><p>I believe the best course going forward is to return to AD&D's level of abstraction as the game's default for the most part. As the RPG world's big tent the default style of play needs to be palatable to a variety of people in a way that 3e and 4e's extremes are not. Of course I might just be playing too much AD&D lately.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Campbell, post: 5927651, member: 16586"] More and more I'm convinced that the power of D&D lies in its abstractions. There's something powerful and almost primal in the quirks of D&D hit points and saves that gets lost in post AD&D games which make them function radically different in play. The abstractions inherent in the game operate optimally when when one does not bring the microscope up too closely. You're left with a more flexible game of dungeon exploration/monster murder that way. Where I think 3e (and to a lesser extent 2e) falters is that it is D&D that takes itself too seriously. It extends the metaphor of a number of abstractions to the point where we're forced to look at things too closely. Additions like touch AC, the rejiggering of saves to serve simulation, overly specific combat maneuvers and extending the metaphor of leveling to include mundane skills push the game's abstractions to your face to the point where we stop seeing abstractions as abstractions and instead view them as objective reality. This creates a simulation about nothing that I find incredibly unsatisfying and wholly unlike AD&D. Of course for people who already viewed AD&D in a highly simulative light or wanted a bit more RM style sim this is satisfactory as long as one didn't look too hard at what they were actually simulating or didn't mind things like the trip attack fighter who trips someone on nearly every turn. I'm certainly biased - 3e is by far my least favorite edition. 4e is in many ways 3e's opposite. Instead of extending the metaphors of the game's metaphors, it embraces the power of the game's abstractions and layers more abstractions on top of it, creating the possibility for using the game for vanilla narrativist play. However, the level of abstraction in the game becomes so strong that the dungeon exploration the game was founded on becomes almost impossible to play out in 4eC. The need to step outside of the character is too jarring for a good contingent to deal with. My experience with 4e is that it functions best for groups who had long ago left the typical D&D core story behind for more heroic/mythic tropes. I believe the best course going forward is to return to AD&D's level of abstraction as the game's default for the most part. As the RPG world's big tent the default style of play needs to be palatable to a variety of people in a way that 3e and 4e's extremes are not. Of course I might just be playing too much AD&D lately. [/QUOTE]
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Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.
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