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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7065119" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Well, what we're given is the very cogent "occurs if any creatures are caught completely off guard at the start of battle."</p><p></p><p>So we basically have to adjudicate the fictional positioning of the situation. The way to do it is (a) consider the context and (b) deploy the resolution mechanics. Typically (as you mention), you're talking about an Insight test for transitioning from Social Scene to Combat Scene or Perception an Exploration Scene to Combat Scene or Combat > Combat. I say test rather than contest, because I don't roll dice in these situations. I'm usually using the Medium DC and sometimes using the Easy or Hard DCs if the fictional positioning warrants. </p><p></p><p>Every now and again, Nature or Streetwise might be subbed for the test.</p><p></p><p>Now 4e doesn't outright mandate (in explicit terms) that Surprise isn't something that a GM can impose by fiat. However, 4e is (a) extremely player agency sensitive as a whole (going to great lengths to ensure it) and is (b) very adversarial to GM Force as a whole (going to great lengths to mitigate it). </p><p></p><p>So while I agree that Surprise isn't nearly as potent as in prior editions or as in 5e (for a number of reasons), it is still a non-insignificant action economy boost that scales with number of beneficiaries. </p><p></p><p>Given these things, when the fictional positioning goes from neutral (or especially from aware and alert; in the case of high Wis characters or characters with features that hedge against Surprise) to the adversarial status of "caught completely off guard", I think its against the holistic ethos of 4e to just declare that fictional positioning status change by GM fiat (especially so when there are rules that can easily be consulted to make that determination).</p><p></p><p>Finally, when you double down by itroducing an "escort NPC" or "protect NPC" trope to the combat, I think actual mechanical Surprise Round by fiat compounds the problem. It is one thing to do that to 4e PCs who are amazingly resilient to front-loaded salvos (by design) and can nearly always get off the ropes to rally. It is another thing entirely when a "not so resilient NPC (or group o them) of which the asymmetrical point of combat is to ensure their safety" suffers the same mechanical disadvantage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7065119, member: 6696971"] Well, what we're given is the very cogent "occurs if any creatures are caught completely off guard at the start of battle." So we basically have to adjudicate the fictional positioning of the situation. The way to do it is (a) consider the context and (b) deploy the resolution mechanics. Typically (as you mention), you're talking about an Insight test for transitioning from Social Scene to Combat Scene or Perception an Exploration Scene to Combat Scene or Combat > Combat. I say test rather than contest, because I don't roll dice in these situations. I'm usually using the Medium DC and sometimes using the Easy or Hard DCs if the fictional positioning warrants. Every now and again, Nature or Streetwise might be subbed for the test. Now 4e doesn't outright mandate (in explicit terms) that Surprise isn't something that a GM can impose by fiat. However, 4e is (a) extremely player agency sensitive as a whole (going to great lengths to ensure it) and is (b) very adversarial to GM Force as a whole (going to great lengths to mitigate it). So while I agree that Surprise isn't nearly as potent as in prior editions or as in 5e (for a number of reasons), it is still a non-insignificant action economy boost that scales with number of beneficiaries. Given these things, when the fictional positioning goes from neutral (or especially from aware and alert; in the case of high Wis characters or characters with features that hedge against Surprise) to the adversarial status of "caught completely off guard", I think its against the holistic ethos of 4e to just declare that fictional positioning status change by GM fiat (especially so when there are rules that can easily be consulted to make that determination). Finally, when you double down by itroducing an "escort NPC" or "protect NPC" trope to the combat, I think actual mechanical Surprise Round by fiat compounds the problem. It is one thing to do that to 4e PCs who are amazingly resilient to front-loaded salvos (by design) and can nearly always get off the ropes to rally. It is another thing entirely when a "not so resilient NPC (or group o them) of which the asymmetrical point of combat is to ensure their safety" suffers the same mechanical disadvantage. [/QUOTE]
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