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Enworld Vecna Battles, Commentary
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<blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8694561" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p>So this thread is dedicated to some commentaries about the Vecna monster and what we are seeing with the fights we are doing on Enworld.</p><p></p><p>In the latest fight, we are trying an "adventure" scenario where we entered Vecna's lair, guarded by various traps, and then took Vecna with lair actions.</p><p></p><p>A few notes:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In the "stock battle" fights with Vecna, it generally came down to the physical fighters with caster support. Casters can't really fight Vecna due to 5 legendary resistances + his amazing super counterspell, so its up to the fighters to lay down the pain. However, the adventure scenario really shows what that counterspell can do. In a normal scenario with things like minions and symbol traps and such, the casters can clean these up with area effects or dispel magics.... opening the way for the fighters to pound on the big bad. But with Vecna's counterspell, suddenly your normal magical counters are removed or heavily weakened, and now the fighters are also having to deal with those things, which dilutes their focus.<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The "summon shadows" lair action is insanely powerful, and just showcases the powerful synergy. Because the shadows get to instantly summon next to the PCS and attack, their lack of defenses isn't as important, while their offense has infinite scaling due to strength damage always being a major threat, whether your 1st level or 20th. Further, because your caster area effect spells are neutered by vecna, you can't just clear them out with a single spell and move on. Now there are ways to counter them, spirit guardians or in our case the Devotion paladin's holy nimbus can just mop them up, but if you don't have those counters, you are in big trouble.<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">We have seen a lot of rules arguments around Vecna's abilities, a number of which are due to the fact that they are abilities and not spells. Over the course of 3 fights, I feel like ultimately this change has been for the worst. In theory giving Vecna just a few abilities should make things easier, but you lose all of the rules coverage that being a spell immediately gives you, and so things become a lot "vaguer" for many cases, such as anti-magic field, stealth, or subtle spell. Further, as this adventure fight has shown us, having just a few spells can give Vecna a wealth of interesting options and really craft a great battleground. A vecna without those things is a lot less scary and interesting. And while a DM could always craft a lair with those spells present....again it just showcases that a high level spellcaster....should have spells. Without them, things are just not as strong and interesting.<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I think the key to Vecna is in giving him time to let his teleport heal go to work, and there are many ways to craft a lair to do that. For example, vecna could teleport himself behind a wall (with a small hole for sight) with some prisoners chained to the wall. You kill the prisoners and heal up, now behind almost complete cover. Suddenly Vecna becomes insanely scary, he can move to places in his lair that is hard for a party without a heavy amount of teleportation to get to, and with proper minions and prisoners around, can recover from anything short of a major party offensive nuke. <br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vecna's ability to lay down a very high damage effect, and then follow it up with 2 melee crits with his dagger to instantly kill you, is a very nasty combo. He is a "wizard", but a wizard with a melee bazooka in his hands.<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I also think knowledge is a big factor. Our group has had an advantage in that everyone got to see Vecna's statblock, and so has a general understanding of his tricks. But I could see a party with no knowledge of Vecna face him, and then their big spell gets neutered by a long range counterspell, they suddenly Vecna teleports to a place the PCs can't follow, and chaos ensues.</li> </ul><p></p><p>Ultimately my thoughts on Vecna is.... his "base" stats are pretty weak for his CR. However, he has a lot of tools in his belt that are incredibly effective when combined with smart DM play and a good lair. Aka a well crafted lair for Vecna gives him a much bigger CR increase than such a lair might be for another CR 26 creature. Vecna is meh, Venca + Lair is a worthy endgame boss for even a 20th level party.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Stalker0, post: 8694561, member: 5889"] So this thread is dedicated to some commentaries about the Vecna monster and what we are seeing with the fights we are doing on Enworld. In the latest fight, we are trying an "adventure" scenario where we entered Vecna's lair, guarded by various traps, and then took Vecna with lair actions. A few notes: [LIST] [*]In the "stock battle" fights with Vecna, it generally came down to the physical fighters with caster support. Casters can't really fight Vecna due to 5 legendary resistances + his amazing super counterspell, so its up to the fighters to lay down the pain. However, the adventure scenario really shows what that counterspell can do. In a normal scenario with things like minions and symbol traps and such, the casters can clean these up with area effects or dispel magics.... opening the way for the fighters to pound on the big bad. But with Vecna's counterspell, suddenly your normal magical counters are removed or heavily weakened, and now the fighters are also having to deal with those things, which dilutes their focus. [*]The "summon shadows" lair action is insanely powerful, and just showcases the powerful synergy. Because the shadows get to instantly summon next to the PCS and attack, their lack of defenses isn't as important, while their offense has infinite scaling due to strength damage always being a major threat, whether your 1st level or 20th. Further, because your caster area effect spells are neutered by vecna, you can't just clear them out with a single spell and move on. Now there are ways to counter them, spirit guardians or in our case the Devotion paladin's holy nimbus can just mop them up, but if you don't have those counters, you are in big trouble. [*]We have seen a lot of rules arguments around Vecna's abilities, a number of which are due to the fact that they are abilities and not spells. Over the course of 3 fights, I feel like ultimately this change has been for the worst. In theory giving Vecna just a few abilities should make things easier, but you lose all of the rules coverage that being a spell immediately gives you, and so things become a lot "vaguer" for many cases, such as anti-magic field, stealth, or subtle spell. Further, as this adventure fight has shown us, having just a few spells can give Vecna a wealth of interesting options and really craft a great battleground. A vecna without those things is a lot less scary and interesting. And while a DM could always craft a lair with those spells present....again it just showcases that a high level spellcaster....should have spells. Without them, things are just not as strong and interesting. [*]I think the key to Vecna is in giving him time to let his teleport heal go to work, and there are many ways to craft a lair to do that. For example, vecna could teleport himself behind a wall (with a small hole for sight) with some prisoners chained to the wall. You kill the prisoners and heal up, now behind almost complete cover. Suddenly Vecna becomes insanely scary, he can move to places in his lair that is hard for a party without a heavy amount of teleportation to get to, and with proper minions and prisoners around, can recover from anything short of a major party offensive nuke. [*]Vecna's ability to lay down a very high damage effect, and then follow it up with 2 melee crits with his dagger to instantly kill you, is a very nasty combo. He is a "wizard", but a wizard with a melee bazooka in his hands. [*]I also think knowledge is a big factor. Our group has had an advantage in that everyone got to see Vecna's statblock, and so has a general understanding of his tricks. But I could see a party with no knowledge of Vecna face him, and then their big spell gets neutered by a long range counterspell, they suddenly Vecna teleports to a place the PCs can't follow, and chaos ensues. [/LIST] Ultimately my thoughts on Vecna is.... his "base" stats are pretty weak for his CR. However, he has a lot of tools in his belt that are incredibly effective when combined with smart DM play and a good lair. Aka a well crafted lair for Vecna gives him a much bigger CR increase than such a lair might be for another CR 26 creature. Vecna is meh, Venca + Lair is a worthy endgame boss for even a 20th level party. [/QUOTE]
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