Epic play

[S'mon]

I was also going to suggest heading to Upper Krust's site.

I particularly like where he takes the definitions of Heroic, Paragon and Epic Tiers and proposes changing the levels of monsters to actual match those definitions. This is a great starting point for thinking about Epic design because it makes you stop and think, "What is an Epic threat?" I think one of the things that 4E got wrong was making things like swordwings - basically an upper Heroic monster - into an Epic monster despite the fact that it does not pose the sort of threat that Epic should actually be about.

I like the idea of Swordwings for my Forgotten Realms campaign - I just bought 3 Swordwing minis - because in the Realms, "Epic" frankly just doesn't mean that much. Get out of bed and you'll meet 6 Epic Things Before Breakfast, it often seems. That's how Greenwood has always done it - the Epic becomes mundane - and I think that's just how the Realms works. I intend to treat Epic in my FR campaign as pretty much 'high paragon', I think, at least most of the time.

For a different setting I would go with the 'Epic Threat = Destroyer of Worlds' type stuff ok.

 

[D'karr]

I like the idea of Swordwings for my Forgotten Realms campaign - I just bought 3 Swordwing minis - because in the Realms, "Epic" frankly just doesn't mean that much. Get out of bed and you'll meet 6 Epic Things Before Breakfast, it often seems. That's how Greenwood has always done it - the Epic becomes mundane - and I think that's just how the Realms works. I intend to treat Epic in my FR campaign as pretty much 'high paragon', I think, at least most of the time.

For a different setting I would go with the 'Epic Threat = Destroyer of Worlds' type stuff ok.

In a world like Forgotten Realms where the gods have literally walked among men so many times, I agree. Epic is simply an extension of Paragon.

For worlds like Eberron, I'd definitely see a different perspective.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Interesting.

I must admit, S'mon and D'karr, I have never run FR that way in any edition of D&D. I've only had one campaign where Elminster was even mentioned - it was set in the Dalelands - and that was by a player who had recently (at the time) read a thread here (IIRC) that asked why Elminster didn't solve everything.

I still want my Epic to feel Epic. So no Epic swordwings for me, for example. A really advanced aboleth, however, is an Epic threat....

 

[S'mon]

Interesting.

I must admit, S'mon and D'karr, I have never run FR that way in any edition of D&D. I've only had one campaign where Elminster was even mentioned - it was set in the Dalelands - and that was by a player who had recently (at the time) read a thread here (IIRC) that asked why Elminster didn't solve everything.

I still want my Epic to feel Epic. So no Epic swordwings for me, for example. A really advanced aboleth, however, is an Epic threat....

I think over nearly 1.5 years of play so far, the first canon NPC ever mentioned was by me, last night - Fzoul Chembryl, the Grand Preceptor of Bane. I'm not sure anyone heard me, either - the pub was very noisy!

Basically what I'm thinking is that for a stable, easy to run long-term Forgotten Realms campaign, it seems to make most sense for me to treat Epic Tier pretty much as High Paragon; the PCs will be dealing with large-scale national issues and threats, but probably not reweaving the fabric of reality or saving the Multiverse. The setting and the core books provide plenty of support for this approach (unlike in, say, 3e) and I think it's probably what my players want - if not I can certainly adapt accordingly.

Very loosely, I see things as follows

Heroic Tier Threats (pretty much done)
Bandits
Goblins
Banite Cultists
Orcs
Far Realm - Grell

Paragon Tier threats
Zhentarim - Darkhold
Drow - City
Death Cultists, Demons
Netheril - small forces
Giants
Adult & Elder Dragons
Bane - Banelar Naga

Epic Tier Threats
Netheril - Princes of Shadow & major forces
Bane - Fzoul Chembryl
Zhentarim - Manshoon (maybe)
Elder & Ancient Dragons
Drow - Lolth
Far Realm - Swordwings

I'd class Elric as an Epic hero, and he certainly fought plenty of Swordwing equivalent type stuff, as well as facing off against gods at the end.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I think over nearly 1.5 years of play so far, the first canon NPC ever mentioned was by me, last night - Fzoul Chembryl, the Grand Preceptor of Bane. I'm not sure anyone heard me, either - the pub was very noisy! (snip)

That's about the same ratio as in my games!

That said, I would love to run a campaign centred around a clone of Manshoon returning... after Elminster and Manshoon off each other....

(snip) I'd class Elric as an Epic hero, and he certainly fought plenty of Swordwing equivalent type stuff, as well as facing off against gods at the end.

Actually, that's a really good point. XP for you (except I can't give you again).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Basically what I'm thinking is that for a stable, easy to run long-term Forgotten Realms campaign, it seems to make most sense for me to treat Epic Tier pretty much as High Paragon; the PCs will be dealing with large-scale national issues and threats, but probably not reweaving the fabric of reality or saving the Multiverse.

Embrace the collateral damage and magically 'nuke' Waterdeep with the Far Realm equivalent of a Neuron*-Bomb where everyone affected gets impregnated by Swordwing eggs in their minds and after their heads explode they become pseudonatural 'jaw' zombies.

*Yes Neuron.

 

[S'mon]

Embrace the collateral damage and magically 'nuke' Waterdeep with the Far Realm equivalent of a Neuron*-Bomb where everyone affected gets impregnated by Swordwing eggs in their minds and after their heads explode they become pseudonatural 'jaw' zombies.

*Yes Neuron.

Hmm.... .... Well, maybe. I dunno, I hopefully have more than 3 years on this campaign; I'm sure things will build to various climaxes but I have plenty of time to see how things go. In Paragon Tier I'm planning to run P2 in the HPE series, with Orcus vs Lolth, and that could lead on to more demonic, undead and drow shenanigans. I'm also looking at running Perkins' version of Hall of the Fire Giant King, so fire giants and primordial stuff. AndI have the Shadovar of Netheril in the wings; there's a short 16th level FR adventure in Dungeon involving them I may use - I'm definitely using the stat blocks.
My PCs just made 9th level and I think it's too early for me really to be thinking much about Epic yet; the Epic Tier will be shaped largely by how Paragon turns out.