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Epic! Yes. Fail? Maybe.
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<blockquote data-quote="catastrophic" data-source="post: 5519698" data-attributes="member: 81381"><p>The point of having tiers laid out and codified is so that gms can better plan for these different sorts of adventures. That's a positive goal for the design of a turn based system, and just saying 'these things happen at various times' is completly missing the point of it. </p><p> </p><p>That's the idea- to have a clear point where the GM can begin to incorperate various story concepts, to aid them in doing so. It's about helping the gm achieve those goals, and also ensuring that they have ways to bring those factors in, instead of neglecting them as so often occurs. The fact that wotc completly botched that trasition doesn't change it from being a positive goal. </p><p> </p><p>Ultimately the failure is on all tiers. There needs to be far more suppport for noncombat and compaign events, and a revision of elements like rituals and treasure with that in mind. Right now, fighting is all 4e is really about- despite a lot of great campaign advice for dms and players in various forms, wotc is mostly sticking to the lazy, backwards notion that story, plot, characterisation ect are just things that happen and shouldn't be supported by good mechanics, even indirectly. That's a popular copout, but it's still a failure of design.</p><p> </p><p>It's not suprising that by epic tier, that neglect has worn thin, and it becomes clear that there's really nothing going on but yet another slugfest. Certainly, more could be done to improve those slugfests (like having actual mechancs to reflect the vastly greater scope- imagine if every time your pc went below 0 hit points, the lands and peoples they were magically linked to suffered a calamity?), but at some point, it's the story side, and the appaling lack of mechanics support for such, that is the core of this problem.</p><p> </p><p>One of the ideas I had for modding 4e would be to do alternative wealth by the three tiers. Tier one you're after coin, like normal people. But by paragon tier, you're moving beyond money, and gain treasure in the form of things like 'hoards', 'boons', and of course, land and title. Then in epic tier, you'd straight up be after Power- cosmic power in various forms, like divine portfolios, elemental power sources, and the worship (or souls) of millions. </p><p> </p><p>The idea of this system would be to take the broader story assets the pcs rely on for noncombat activities, give them expanded support, and also make them change dramatically between the tiers. That way, the way they do things, and the things they're after changes the same ways. Each tier's kind of treasure woudl act in a unique fashion, and each system could back stacked upon the one before it to a degree.</p><p> </p><p>In such a system, in heroic teir, the pcs are after money, equipment, a good horse, maybe a small stronghold, gold to buy crops for starving peasants, or whatever. In paragon tier, they're looking for vassals, land, politial power, and also sources of vast riches like massive dragon hordes and gold mines. In epic tier, they're doing all the stuff npc powers are always doing- seeking out power, using it to alter reality itself, creating astral dominions, and other epic tasks. That's the kind of setup that would make the tiers genuinly different.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="catastrophic, post: 5519698, member: 81381"] The point of having tiers laid out and codified is so that gms can better plan for these different sorts of adventures. That's a positive goal for the design of a turn based system, and just saying 'these things happen at various times' is completly missing the point of it. That's the idea- to have a clear point where the GM can begin to incorperate various story concepts, to aid them in doing so. It's about helping the gm achieve those goals, and also ensuring that they have ways to bring those factors in, instead of neglecting them as so often occurs. The fact that wotc completly botched that trasition doesn't change it from being a positive goal. Ultimately the failure is on all tiers. There needs to be far more suppport for noncombat and compaign events, and a revision of elements like rituals and treasure with that in mind. Right now, fighting is all 4e is really about- despite a lot of great campaign advice for dms and players in various forms, wotc is mostly sticking to the lazy, backwards notion that story, plot, characterisation ect are just things that happen and shouldn't be supported by good mechanics, even indirectly. That's a popular copout, but it's still a failure of design. It's not suprising that by epic tier, that neglect has worn thin, and it becomes clear that there's really nothing going on but yet another slugfest. Certainly, more could be done to improve those slugfests (like having actual mechancs to reflect the vastly greater scope- imagine if every time your pc went below 0 hit points, the lands and peoples they were magically linked to suffered a calamity?), but at some point, it's the story side, and the appaling lack of mechanics support for such, that is the core of this problem. One of the ideas I had for modding 4e would be to do alternative wealth by the three tiers. Tier one you're after coin, like normal people. But by paragon tier, you're moving beyond money, and gain treasure in the form of things like 'hoards', 'boons', and of course, land and title. Then in epic tier, you'd straight up be after Power- cosmic power in various forms, like divine portfolios, elemental power sources, and the worship (or souls) of millions. The idea of this system would be to take the broader story assets the pcs rely on for noncombat activities, give them expanded support, and also make them change dramatically between the tiers. That way, the way they do things, and the things they're after changes the same ways. Each tier's kind of treasure woudl act in a unique fashion, and each system could back stacked upon the one before it to a degree. In such a system, in heroic teir, the pcs are after money, equipment, a good horse, maybe a small stronghold, gold to buy crops for starving peasants, or whatever. In paragon tier, they're looking for vassals, land, politial power, and also sources of vast riches like massive dragon hordes and gold mines. In epic tier, they're doing all the stuff npc powers are always doing- seeking out power, using it to alter reality itself, creating astral dominions, and other epic tasks. That's the kind of setup that would make the tiers genuinly different. [/QUOTE]
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