Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
Playing the Game
Play by Post
Living Worlds
Living EN World
Erf's Circlet of Leaves - Item Proposal
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Trouvere" data-source="post: 4566793" data-attributes="member: 37250"><p>A continuous / use-activated item costs 2000 x spell level x caster level <strong>x an additional modifier based on the usual duration of the spell.</strong> For a spell lasting 1 min/level, this is x2. <strong>The guideline price would be 4000 gp, then.</strong></p><p></p><p>So if I understand correctly: the proposal states that the item can be made by a forest gnome with at least 1 level in either Druid or Ranger. The gnome himself wouldn't need to possess the Craft Wondrous Item feat, due to cooperative crafting rules.</p><p></p><p>If used by a forest gnome who was not a druid or ranger, the item would allow him to use his inherent 1/day 1 minute CL 1 Speak with Animals ability on any animal, sidestepping the need to identify which particular animals are 'forest animals'. That's a rather minor effect, probably not worth 4000 gp. <strong> If the gnome does have Wild Empathy, then it allows unlimited use of Speak with Animals, superceding the gnome racial feature entirely.</strong></p><p></p><p>I don't think any price reduction should be permitted. An item that expands a gnome racial feature that can only be made by a gnome? That in practice will have nothing to do with the gnome racial feature? What? Beyond that, considering that judges have to examine each item on a case by case basis, it would be tedious to have to repeat the process for the next druid or ranger who pops up who happens not to be a (forest) gnome.[sblock=That damn spell]So, since it will be getting a lot more use, just what does Speak with Animals do? It might be nice to tie this down before a range of DMs face it in action. The spell has a range of Personal, so it's definitely NOT cast on the animal in question. If the caster is in a farmyard, would a single casting let him talk to both the horse and the cow? Or would he need two castings? Must he 'engage with' each animal in order to subsequently understand its responses? Or can a passing pig make an interjection? Can he understand the chirps of nearby birds that aren't even directed at him? The rules here are far too vague.[/sblock]The item description should make clear the mode of activation. If it's use activated, then an animal cannot initiate a conversation when the item is inactive (after 1 minute of not talking), since it is not the user. But that would just lead to the user throwing out an animal-speak "Good lad" every 60 seconds. Better that it be continuous. But then, can he understand every animal vocalization, whether directed at him or not?</p><p></p><p>Now, what does this get the user?</p><p></p><p><strong>His animal companion gains the equivalent of the 'talk with master' ability of a 5th level familiar</strong>, though is still of lower intelligence. Most animal companions have the Scent ability. Where before the animal companion was limited to growling a general warning, now it can say "Hey, boss, there's an orc hiding upwind, about 40' away" ("Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights" - hmm... "hey, boss, that masked guy you had me track who got away has just come into the room"). It's not quite granting scent to the character, but it's close.</p><p></p><p><strong>Note that LEW has a Lesser Scent ability (20' range, requires a successful Search DC check) that can be taken by a Ranger 4 as an alternative class feature, instead of an animal companion. Who'd do that, with this item available?</strong></p><p></p><p>Companions that lack scent tend to be birds with a raw Spot check unachievable by the master before 10th level or so.</p><p></p><p>Notifying the master of a detected scent or distant sight is, of course, nothing more than some familiars can do, but <strong>it does remove the primary difference between familiars and animal companions</strong>, which cannot routinely speak but which otherwise get all the advantages (real d8 HD (as opposed to pseudo d2) that grant new feats (unlike a familiar) and skills (which are independent of those of the master, unlike a familiar's), bonus Str, and so on).</p><p></p><p>Possibly, or possibly not, the wearer can routinely understand the vocalizations of any animal nearby, if he pays attention. Most of the time, this will be useless, or maddening, as well as DM make-work, but animal alarm calls might convey useful information.</p><p></p><p><strong>The item interacts synergistically with the lower level Summon Nature's Ally line of spells.</strong> Most often, all a summoned animal can do is attack an opponent it's summoned beside. What tricks does a summoned animal know, anyway? None, I suppose. Can the druid make it do anything else with Handle Animal? Presumably, with a full round action and a DC 25 check. But if he can speak to the animal, according to the SNA description, he can instruct it to perform other actions (as a summoned creature, it's effectively dominated, so Handle Animal doesn't apply when a simple verbal instruction can be given).</p><p></p><p>This certainly increases the utility of the SNA line. A monkey or ape can do practically anything it's told. A crocodile can carry poor swimmers across a river. A dire badger can dig a traversable tunnel (druid's Rope Trick! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />) Fliers can do something to take advantage of their mobility, I'm sure.</p><p></p><p>So, I think for a character with an animal companion and/or access to the SNA line, it might well be undervalued at 4000 gp, and definitely at 2000 gp. I don't have a clue what it's really worth. Certainly not 64,000 gp like by-the-formula Nasal Spreaders of Scent would be based on the Psy War 2 power. But perhaps as a guide, note that the Ring of Invisibility costs a 2/3 premium over its bookprice, because of the extra utility of renewable invisibility.</p><p></p><p>How expensive would it have to be before you'd say "Yeah, I'll pass"?</p><p></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Edit (1): Torc of Animal Speech (from Masters of the Wild) costs 12,000 gp.</strong></p><p><strong>Edit (2): There has been a similar item in LEW's very own history - a <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-en-world/161885-shop-di-senzios-magical-shop-12.html#post3900565" target="_blank">Ring of Animal Speech</a> costing 10,000 gp</strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Trouvere, post: 4566793, member: 37250"] A continuous / use-activated item costs 2000 x spell level x caster level [B]x an additional modifier based on the usual duration of the spell.[/B] For a spell lasting 1 min/level, this is x2. [B]The guideline price would be 4000 gp, then.[/B] So if I understand correctly: the proposal states that the item can be made by a forest gnome with at least 1 level in either Druid or Ranger. The gnome himself wouldn't need to possess the Craft Wondrous Item feat, due to cooperative crafting rules. If used by a forest gnome who was not a druid or ranger, the item would allow him to use his inherent 1/day 1 minute CL 1 Speak with Animals ability on any animal, sidestepping the need to identify which particular animals are 'forest animals'. That's a rather minor effect, probably not worth 4000 gp. [B] If the gnome does have Wild Empathy, then it allows unlimited use of Speak with Animals, superceding the gnome racial feature entirely.[/B] I don't think any price reduction should be permitted. An item that expands a gnome racial feature that can only be made by a gnome? That in practice will have nothing to do with the gnome racial feature? What? Beyond that, considering that judges have to examine each item on a case by case basis, it would be tedious to have to repeat the process for the next druid or ranger who pops up who happens not to be a (forest) gnome.[sblock=That damn spell]So, since it will be getting a lot more use, just what does Speak with Animals do? It might be nice to tie this down before a range of DMs face it in action. The spell has a range of Personal, so it's definitely NOT cast on the animal in question. If the caster is in a farmyard, would a single casting let him talk to both the horse and the cow? Or would he need two castings? Must he 'engage with' each animal in order to subsequently understand its responses? Or can a passing pig make an interjection? Can he understand the chirps of nearby birds that aren't even directed at him? The rules here are far too vague.[/sblock]The item description should make clear the mode of activation. If it's use activated, then an animal cannot initiate a conversation when the item is inactive (after 1 minute of not talking), since it is not the user. But that would just lead to the user throwing out an animal-speak "Good lad" every 60 seconds. Better that it be continuous. But then, can he understand every animal vocalization, whether directed at him or not? Now, what does this get the user? [B]His animal companion gains the equivalent of the 'talk with master' ability of a 5th level familiar[/B], though is still of lower intelligence. Most animal companions have the Scent ability. Where before the animal companion was limited to growling a general warning, now it can say "Hey, boss, there's an orc hiding upwind, about 40' away" ("Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights" - hmm... "hey, boss, that masked guy you had me track who got away has just come into the room"). It's not quite granting scent to the character, but it's close. [B]Note that LEW has a Lesser Scent ability (20' range, requires a successful Search DC check) that can be taken by a Ranger 4 as an alternative class feature, instead of an animal companion. Who'd do that, with this item available?[/B] Companions that lack scent tend to be birds with a raw Spot check unachievable by the master before 10th level or so. Notifying the master of a detected scent or distant sight is, of course, nothing more than some familiars can do, but [B]it does remove the primary difference between familiars and animal companions[/B], which cannot routinely speak but which otherwise get all the advantages (real d8 HD (as opposed to pseudo d2) that grant new feats (unlike a familiar) and skills (which are independent of those of the master, unlike a familiar's), bonus Str, and so on). Possibly, or possibly not, the wearer can routinely understand the vocalizations of any animal nearby, if he pays attention. Most of the time, this will be useless, or maddening, as well as DM make-work, but animal alarm calls might convey useful information. [B]The item interacts synergistically with the lower level Summon Nature's Ally line of spells.[/B] Most often, all a summoned animal can do is attack an opponent it's summoned beside. What tricks does a summoned animal know, anyway? None, I suppose. Can the druid make it do anything else with Handle Animal? Presumably, with a full round action and a DC 25 check. But if he can speak to the animal, according to the SNA description, he can instruct it to perform other actions (as a summoned creature, it's effectively dominated, so Handle Animal doesn't apply when a simple verbal instruction can be given). This certainly increases the utility of the SNA line. A monkey or ape can do practically anything it's told. A crocodile can carry poor swimmers across a river. A dire badger can dig a traversable tunnel (druid's Rope Trick! :p) Fliers can do something to take advantage of their mobility, I'm sure. So, I think for a character with an animal companion and/or access to the SNA line, it might well be undervalued at 4000 gp, and definitely at 2000 gp. I don't have a clue what it's really worth. Certainly not 64,000 gp like by-the-formula Nasal Spreaders of Scent would be based on the Psy War 2 power. But perhaps as a guide, note that the Ring of Invisibility costs a 2/3 premium over its bookprice, because of the extra utility of renewable invisibility. How expensive would it have to be before you'd say "Yeah, I'll pass"? [B] Edit (1): Torc of Animal Speech (from Masters of the Wild) costs 12,000 gp. Edit (2): There has been a similar item in LEW's very own history - a [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-en-world/161885-shop-di-senzios-magical-shop-12.html#post3900565]Ring of Animal Speech[/url] costing 10,000 gp[/B] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
Playing the Game
Play by Post
Living Worlds
Living EN World
Erf's Circlet of Leaves - Item Proposal
Top