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Evaluating the warlord-y Fighter
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<blockquote data-quote="koga305" data-source="post: 6487107" data-attributes="member: 6747640"><p>As a fan of 4E, I particularly loved the Warlord class - the idea of a purely martial "buffer" sounded very cool to play (although I never got the chance, as I DMed the one 4E game I played in). Clearly others enjoyed the class as well - in particular, I get the impression that some 4E fans felt that 5E didn't have adequate options for a Warlord-style character. </p><p></p><p>Obviously these have been toned down with 5E, but there are certainly still a few abilities that allow a martial character to support their team, mostly in the Fighter's Battlemaster subclass.</p><p></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The <strong>Commander's Strike</strong> maneuver lets you trade one of your extra attacks and your bonus action to let a party member make one attack using their reaction (adding your superiority die to the damage). By default, the Fighter is probably one of the stronger attackers in the party, but I can see this being <em>really</em> good for letting a Rogue make an extra Sneak Attack, and it could be powerful for a raging Barbarian, smiting Paladin, or Hunter's Marking Ranger too, as those classes have better single attacks then you do.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The <strong>Distracting Strike</strong> maneuver lets you set an ally up for Advantage attacking the same foe. This seems good in the same situations as Commander's Strike (an ally with one big attack), and can help enable Sneak Attack. Could also set up stuff like Contagion that can end a fight in one hit.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The <strong>Maneuvering Attack </strong>maneuver lets an ally move half their speed without provoking opportunity attacks, as you make an attack on your turn. I can see this coming in handy for a Defender-style character who wants to get the Wizard behind them, but also as a way to put allies in the right tactical position. In the right fight, this could be a big advantage.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The <strong>Rally </strong>maneuver lets you spend your bonus action to toss an ally some temporary HP (Charisma modifier + superiority die). Most Fighters won't have a stellar Charisma, but those that can afford a 14 or so into it might get some mileage out of this. Although you can't help an ally that's already dropped, the "healing" from this is comparable to the Healing Word spell cast at first to third level.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The <strong>Trip Attack</strong> maneuver doesn't initially come off as warlord-y, but hear me out - a prone enemy can stand up on their turn, but until they do your comrades will have advantage on melee attacks toward the target. While this primarily seems like a way to set up utterly bonkers Action Surge turns (3-8 attacks with Advantage is <em>crazy</em>), it can really help your party if the initiative order works out the right way.</li> </ul><p></p><p>The primary complaint with the maneuvers doesn't seem to be their effectiveness, but their rate of use. The Battlemaster receives four Superiority dice every Short Rest (jumping to 5 at level 7 and 6 at level 15), meaning that only about four maneuvers can be used between short rests. Assuming two short rests and 6-8 combats in an adventuring day (as described in the DMG), this correlates to somewhere between 1.5 and 2 maneuvers per combat.</p><p>Since monsters are designed to last around 3 rounds, this means that on average a Fighter might use about one maneuver per two rounds; of course, this might well work out to less in play given that resources are rarely managed perfectly. Of course, this doesn't match the round-by-round tactical play of D&D 4E (in which characters might average the use of 1-2 "powers" per round), but perhaps this is intentional - few characters use a "power" more powerful than a cantrip or basic attack every round in 5E.</p><p></p><p>There are also three feats in 5E that allow characters to mimic some of the Warlord's powers.</p><p></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Although it's not quite the 4E Warlord's Inspiring Word power, the <strong>Healer</strong> feat allows you to heal an ally for 1d6+4+their number of HD once per <em>their</em> short rest. This seems roughly on par with a Cure Wounds spell in a low-to-medium spell slot. It also allows you to bring an unconcious character back to 1 HP when you stabilize them. The main drawback for this feat is that both uses take an action (Thieves get it as a bonus action, making them impressive healers), making it less useful in combat. Still, this feat seems as if it could do nearly a Cleric's job of keeping your party going.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The <strong>Inspiring Leader</strong> feat lets any character give their party an inspirational speech in 10 minutes once per short rest, leaving them with the speaker's Charisma modifier and level in hit points (a L4 Fighter with 14 Charisma would grant 5 THP). Although I don't think the 4E warlord could do exactly this, it certainly seems quite thematic and with a significant investment in Charisma could be helpful. Amusingly, as written this allows a character with the feat to make a career as a motivational speaker, easily doubling or tripling a commoner's effective hit points and potentially saving their life in the event of goblin attack or wagon accident (the benefits never "wear off" until used). More practically, a high-level character could prep ~300 soldiers in a key battalion the day before a battle, acting as an impressive force multiplier. If that's not Warlord-y, I don't know what is.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">For those characters who don't want to be Fighters but want a taste of Warlord abilities, the <strong>Martial Adept</strong> feat offers a single d6 superiority die and two maneuvers. It's not great, but it's something for another class who wants to support their allies martially. It also helps Battlemasters along a bit, as the additional superiority die allows more frequent maneuver use.</li> </ul><p></p><p>While it's not as impressive as the ~70 Warlord powers in the 4E Player's Handbook, core 5E still manages to offer an array of martial "healing" and support abilities. Yet some feel the edition hasn't <em>really</em> captured the feel of the 4E Warlord. Why? Here are some of my thoughts:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">As mentioned above, superiority dice are hard to come by and may not recharge often in the adventuring day. This, combined with a tendency to hoard resources until you really need them, means that a Warlord fighter isn't using his or her abilities on a regular basis.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Most Warlord abilities are relegated to a subsection of a particular class; most options aren't available until third or fourth level and there are only a few of them. By contrast, the 4E Warlord had a whole class's worth of design space to breathe in, with many different viable builds available even from the start.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The 5E "Warlord" lacks access to the depth and breadth of buffing and healing abilities that the 4E Warlord had - he or she can't move, buff, or heal multiple allies at once, deal with conditions, or lead the whole party in a powerful round of attacks.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The martial support abilities available aren't totally unviable, but they're hardly topping the charts so far as character optimization goes. The "best" healer and buffer is still a Bard or Cleric, while a Battlemaster Fighter must invest many resources to even approach the utility of these classes. The most powerful "Warlord" style character is likely a hybrid, serving as the 5E equivalent of a Defender or Striker with the secondary role of a Leader.</li> </ul><p></p><p>That said, there are quite a few neat abilities available to a 5E martial leader, and I'm eager to try playing one some time. And who knows? We may see more options or a whole 5E class/subclass some day.</p><p></p><p>What are your opinions on 5E's martial support options? Are they adequate to represent a 4E-style Warlord character? Do they fit within the 5E framework well? </p><p>In particular, I'd love to hear from anyone who's built a Warlord-style character in 5E and played with it. Did it fill your expectations of what a Warlord should be? Were your abilities effective, and were you able to use them often enough? Did you enjoy playing the character?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="koga305, post: 6487107, member: 6747640"] As a fan of 4E, I particularly loved the Warlord class - the idea of a purely martial "buffer" sounded very cool to play (although I never got the chance, as I DMed the one 4E game I played in). Clearly others enjoyed the class as well - in particular, I get the impression that some 4E fans felt that 5E didn't have adequate options for a Warlord-style character. Obviously these have been toned down with 5E, but there are certainly still a few abilities that allow a martial character to support their team, mostly in the Fighter's Battlemaster subclass. [LIST] [*]The [B]Commander's Strike[/B] maneuver lets you trade one of your extra attacks and your bonus action to let a party member make one attack using their reaction (adding your superiority die to the damage). By default, the Fighter is probably one of the stronger attackers in the party, but I can see this being [I]really[/I] good for letting a Rogue make an extra Sneak Attack, and it could be powerful for a raging Barbarian, smiting Paladin, or Hunter's Marking Ranger too, as those classes have better single attacks then you do. [*]The [B]Distracting Strike[/B] maneuver lets you set an ally up for Advantage attacking the same foe. This seems good in the same situations as Commander's Strike (an ally with one big attack), and can help enable Sneak Attack. Could also set up stuff like Contagion that can end a fight in one hit. [*]The [B]Maneuvering Attack [/B]maneuver lets an ally move half their speed without provoking opportunity attacks, as you make an attack on your turn. I can see this coming in handy for a Defender-style character who wants to get the Wizard behind them, but also as a way to put allies in the right tactical position. In the right fight, this could be a big advantage. [*]The [B]Rally [/B]maneuver lets you spend your bonus action to toss an ally some temporary HP (Charisma modifier + superiority die). Most Fighters won't have a stellar Charisma, but those that can afford a 14 or so into it might get some mileage out of this. Although you can't help an ally that's already dropped, the "healing" from this is comparable to the Healing Word spell cast at first to third level. [*]The [B]Trip Attack[/B] maneuver doesn't initially come off as warlord-y, but hear me out - a prone enemy can stand up on their turn, but until they do your comrades will have advantage on melee attacks toward the target. While this primarily seems like a way to set up utterly bonkers Action Surge turns (3-8 attacks with Advantage is [I]crazy[/I]), it can really help your party if the initiative order works out the right way. [/LIST] The primary complaint with the maneuvers doesn't seem to be their effectiveness, but their rate of use. The Battlemaster receives four Superiority dice every Short Rest (jumping to 5 at level 7 and 6 at level 15), meaning that only about four maneuvers can be used between short rests. Assuming two short rests and 6-8 combats in an adventuring day (as described in the DMG), this correlates to somewhere between 1.5 and 2 maneuvers per combat. Since monsters are designed to last around 3 rounds, this means that on average a Fighter might use about one maneuver per two rounds; of course, this might well work out to less in play given that resources are rarely managed perfectly. Of course, this doesn't match the round-by-round tactical play of D&D 4E (in which characters might average the use of 1-2 "powers" per round), but perhaps this is intentional - few characters use a "power" more powerful than a cantrip or basic attack every round in 5E. There are also three feats in 5E that allow characters to mimic some of the Warlord's powers. [LIST] [*]Although it's not quite the 4E Warlord's Inspiring Word power, the [B]Healer[/B] feat allows you to heal an ally for 1d6+4+their number of HD once per [I]their[/I] short rest. This seems roughly on par with a Cure Wounds spell in a low-to-medium spell slot. It also allows you to bring an unconcious character back to 1 HP when you stabilize them. The main drawback for this feat is that both uses take an action (Thieves get it as a bonus action, making them impressive healers), making it less useful in combat. Still, this feat seems as if it could do nearly a Cleric's job of keeping your party going. [*]The [B]Inspiring Leader[/B] feat lets any character give their party an inspirational speech in 10 minutes once per short rest, leaving them with the speaker's Charisma modifier and level in hit points (a L4 Fighter with 14 Charisma would grant 5 THP). Although I don't think the 4E warlord could do exactly this, it certainly seems quite thematic and with a significant investment in Charisma could be helpful. Amusingly, as written this allows a character with the feat to make a career as a motivational speaker, easily doubling or tripling a commoner's effective hit points and potentially saving their life in the event of goblin attack or wagon accident (the benefits never "wear off" until used). More practically, a high-level character could prep ~300 soldiers in a key battalion the day before a battle, acting as an impressive force multiplier. If that's not Warlord-y, I don't know what is. [*]For those characters who don't want to be Fighters but want a taste of Warlord abilities, the [B]Martial Adept[/B] feat offers a single d6 superiority die and two maneuvers. It's not great, but it's something for another class who wants to support their allies martially. It also helps Battlemasters along a bit, as the additional superiority die allows more frequent maneuver use. [/LIST] While it's not as impressive as the ~70 Warlord powers in the 4E Player's Handbook, core 5E still manages to offer an array of martial "healing" and support abilities. Yet some feel the edition hasn't [I]really[/I] captured the feel of the 4E Warlord. Why? Here are some of my thoughts: [LIST] [*]As mentioned above, superiority dice are hard to come by and may not recharge often in the adventuring day. This, combined with a tendency to hoard resources until you really need them, means that a Warlord fighter isn't using his or her abilities on a regular basis. [*]Most Warlord abilities are relegated to a subsection of a particular class; most options aren't available until third or fourth level and there are only a few of them. By contrast, the 4E Warlord had a whole class's worth of design space to breathe in, with many different viable builds available even from the start. [*]The 5E "Warlord" lacks access to the depth and breadth of buffing and healing abilities that the 4E Warlord had - he or she can't move, buff, or heal multiple allies at once, deal with conditions, or lead the whole party in a powerful round of attacks. [*]The martial support abilities available aren't totally unviable, but they're hardly topping the charts so far as character optimization goes. The "best" healer and buffer is still a Bard or Cleric, while a Battlemaster Fighter must invest many resources to even approach the utility of these classes. The most powerful "Warlord" style character is likely a hybrid, serving as the 5E equivalent of a Defender or Striker with the secondary role of a Leader. [/LIST] That said, there are quite a few neat abilities available to a 5E martial leader, and I'm eager to try playing one some time. And who knows? We may see more options or a whole 5E class/subclass some day. What are your opinions on 5E's martial support options? Are they adequate to represent a 4E-style Warlord character? Do they fit within the 5E framework well? In particular, I'd love to hear from anyone who's built a Warlord-style character in 5E and played with it. Did it fill your expectations of what a Warlord should be? Were your abilities effective, and were you able to use them often enough? Did you enjoy playing the character? [/QUOTE]
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