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Evaluating the warlord-y Fighter
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6488188" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>....and deals +4d8 damage. All without allowing the enemy to act in the meantime. </p><p></p><p>In 5e, that something that <strong>ends encounters</strong>. </p><p></p><p>It's also not exactly "herp derp I hit it with my sword" when you're pumping out up to 200% the damage of anyone else without even spending one anything to do anything. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think this premise is true for either 4e or 5e. Combat roles in 4e kept contributions to combat encounters varied between characters, and 5e's varied class mechanics ensure that contributions are fairly unique. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My experience shows otherwise. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't need much more than "<strong>I End The Encounter</strong>, and then just deal double damage on my 3 turns in the next encounter." </p><p></p><p>A 4e ability that dealt 5[W]+StrMod damage distributed as you see fit over any targets within your movement radius that you hit that also let your allies move their speed with an aftereffect of "you deal +1[W] damage until your next milestone" would be INSANELY powerful as a level 5 daily. Heck, for a more on-par comparison, it should probably be dealing something like 8-10[W] initial damage (5e critters take 3 hits to kill, 4e critters are more like 6-8 hits from a warlord). </p><p></p><p>4e warlords can use their fancy abilities on every hit to do something less impressive than that out the gate (and probably almost as impressive in aggregate, or with more variety). I'd MUCH rather make one big decision than 10 little ones that add up to something possibly significant.</p><p></p><p>MORE BROADLY:</p><p>[sblock]</p><p>I honestly think this is one of the big "preference divides" coming down in 5e. Some people want more granularity. 5e was pushed by the playtest in the direction of simplicity. This, according to mearls & crawford, went against some of the received wisdom that they had when they began the design (for instance, <a href="http://suvudu.com/2014/07/interview-with-dd-lead-designer-mike-mearls-gamers-wanted-5e-to-be-fast-flexible-and-easy-to-play.html" target="_blank">this interview</a>).</p><p></p><p>I don't think the received wisdom was so much <em>wrong</em> as it was <em>narrow</em> and possibly very self-selected. There's a vocal group of players out there who really like the granular details of character construction and want things like 5-ft. shoves to matter. Making things simpler, more streamlined, and less fiddly is not going to make those fans happier - indeed, the simpler effect is just going to seem <em>weak</em> or <em>inadequate</em> or just <em>boring</em> (especially when someone just reads it in a book and does theorycraft on it without seeing all the bits work as a whole -- it's easy to forget monster HP totals when you're looking at battlemaster superiority dice unless you've been in a few fights and then you might just write off more damage as not worth mentioning). It certainly won't offer as many options or decision points. </p><p></p><p>People aren't wrong to want that, but while lots of options and decision points look really good on paper, they are not quite as compelling in practice for a generalist audience.</p><p></p><p>Barry Schwartz does my favorite breakdown of why that is.</p><p>[video=youtube;VO6XEQIsCoM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM[/video]</p><p></p><p>Dan Gilbert does a good one, too. </p><p></p><p>5e makes a conscious effort to let players make meaningful, large decisions, typically about actions, in play. That removes the fiddly bits. It goes HARD against what both 4e and 3e practiced. Instead of choosing 5 powers with effects that constantly demonstrate your narrow specialization, and getting disappointed when you can't, you make one or two choices and don't sweat it if you can't do it every round -- the secret to happiness is low expectations, after all. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>...but I don't know that "they're fine" is something that someone who wants to beat the "CASTERS ARE OVERPOWERED" drum wants to accept.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6488188, member: 2067"] ....and deals +4d8 damage. All without allowing the enemy to act in the meantime. In 5e, that something that [B]ends encounters[/B]. It's also not exactly "herp derp I hit it with my sword" when you're pumping out up to 200% the damage of anyone else without even spending one anything to do anything. I don't think this premise is true for either 4e or 5e. Combat roles in 4e kept contributions to combat encounters varied between characters, and 5e's varied class mechanics ensure that contributions are fairly unique. My experience shows otherwise. I don't need much more than "[B]I End The Encounter[/B], and then just deal double damage on my 3 turns in the next encounter." A 4e ability that dealt 5[W]+StrMod damage distributed as you see fit over any targets within your movement radius that you hit that also let your allies move their speed with an aftereffect of "you deal +1[W] damage until your next milestone" would be INSANELY powerful as a level 5 daily. Heck, for a more on-par comparison, it should probably be dealing something like 8-10[W] initial damage (5e critters take 3 hits to kill, 4e critters are more like 6-8 hits from a warlord). 4e warlords can use their fancy abilities on every hit to do something less impressive than that out the gate (and probably almost as impressive in aggregate, or with more variety). I'd MUCH rather make one big decision than 10 little ones that add up to something possibly significant. MORE BROADLY: [sblock] I honestly think this is one of the big "preference divides" coming down in 5e. Some people want more granularity. 5e was pushed by the playtest in the direction of simplicity. This, according to mearls & crawford, went against some of the received wisdom that they had when they began the design (for instance, [URL="http://suvudu.com/2014/07/interview-with-dd-lead-designer-mike-mearls-gamers-wanted-5e-to-be-fast-flexible-and-easy-to-play.html"]this interview[/URL]). I don't think the received wisdom was so much [I]wrong[/I] as it was [I]narrow[/I] and possibly very self-selected. There's a vocal group of players out there who really like the granular details of character construction and want things like 5-ft. shoves to matter. Making things simpler, more streamlined, and less fiddly is not going to make those fans happier - indeed, the simpler effect is just going to seem [I]weak[/I] or [I]inadequate[/I] or just [I]boring[/I] (especially when someone just reads it in a book and does theorycraft on it without seeing all the bits work as a whole -- it's easy to forget monster HP totals when you're looking at battlemaster superiority dice unless you've been in a few fights and then you might just write off more damage as not worth mentioning). It certainly won't offer as many options or decision points. People aren't wrong to want that, but while lots of options and decision points look really good on paper, they are not quite as compelling in practice for a generalist audience. Barry Schwartz does my favorite breakdown of why that is. [video=youtube;VO6XEQIsCoM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM[/video] Dan Gilbert does a good one, too. 5e makes a conscious effort to let players make meaningful, large decisions, typically about actions, in play. That removes the fiddly bits. It goes HARD against what both 4e and 3e practiced. Instead of choosing 5 powers with effects that constantly demonstrate your narrow specialization, and getting disappointed when you can't, you make one or two choices and don't sweat it if you can't do it every round -- the secret to happiness is low expectations, after all. ;) [/sblock] ...but I don't know that "they're fine" is something that someone who wants to beat the "CASTERS ARE OVERPOWERED" drum wants to accept. [/QUOTE]
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