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Evaluating the warlord-y Fighter
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<blockquote data-quote="koga305" data-source="post: 6488438" data-attributes="member: 6747640"><p>Wow. A lot has happened in this thread since I left! Get ready for a mega-reply post.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Interesting that many people's reply was simply "play a magical support class and refluff it."</p><p>Personally, that's too far over the line for me - having to justify <em>all</em> the powers of a Bard or Cleric as coming from a martial source seems difficult, and avoiding the most "magical" spells (it's hard to refluff Hold Person or Spirit Guardians as nonmagical) seems like you'd be gimping yourself. I'd rather play an explicitly magical character then try to refluff it as a martial one. That said, if it works for you and your table, go for it!</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is true! It feels strange to build a Warlord-type character and end up with Intelligence as your dump stat. Really, there's no plausible Warlord-y use for it except the History skill.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree in large part with you here. Certainly the Warlord-y Fighter can't match a Life Cleric in terms of healing or a Valor Bard in terms of buffing. And certainly, one of the design elements of 5E is that you can't straight-up beat the abilities a mage is good at - that is, nobody can compete with a Wizard's Fireball for taking out mobs or a Life Cleric's Heal spell for bringing someone back from low health.</p><p>On the other hand, I'd say that with resources invested the abilities of a martial character can outpace those of a mage over time. This also fits the design ethos of 5E - sure, a mage can have really strong mobility from spells like Misty Step and Fly, but the Rogue can take an extra move or disengage every turn without expending resources. The Barbarian's damage resistance from Rage is miles better than Stoneskin because it lasts longer (counting Concentration) and doesn't compete for resources (you're doing it every combat, anyway) - and it comes at an earlier level, too. </p><p>I'd argue the same is true for the Healer or Inspiring Leader feats. They may not match a Cleric's healing at its best, but Healer lets you heal 1d6+4+level HP per every Short Rest for every party member, which quickly outpaces a bunch of Cure Wounds spells. Similarly, with about twelve expertise dice per day the Battlemaster can afford to grant the Rogue extra attacks more than the Wizard can afford to cast Haste on a damage-dealer.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Interesting idea here, but it doesn't really match the class design of 5E classes. If a Warlord-y Fighter can manage those abilities, then why shouldn't all Fighters get them? Maybe the solution for Warlord purists is to include a Martial Archetype that enhances the Fighter's normal abilities to have them buff the party, much like the Bard subclasses enhance the Bardic Inspiration feature into a debuffing or combat-buffing ability.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Interesting point, but keep in mind Bless is widely considered one of the most powerful spells in the game. Certainly the ability to help your entire party at once (acting as a force multiplier) is a powerful one, and something the game lacks for martial characters at the moment.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that being more supportive is key to making an effective Warlord, but I don't think fiddly bonuses like this are the way to go - they're antethetical to the way the system is currently designed. Either give out dice like Bless and Bardic Inspiration, or simply grant advantage/disadvantage. I suspect if Wizards expands the Warlord-y options available, we'll see effects that mirror the Protection ability - simply grant Advantage on an attack, or Disadvantage on attempts to hit the character.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is really valuable! Although it's not perfect in my eyes, I actually really like the design of the Battlemaster as written and I suspect it's better than people think it is. Has your friend chosen exclusively Warlord-y maneuvers, or is he focusing on being an effective combatant himself as well?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Thank you!</p><p></p><p>Agreed. One thing to note, though - for many archetypes, there are actually "at-will" abilities that are more than a basic attack. For example, a Defender-y character can use Protection every round, and a battlefield controller with Shield Master can attempt to shove every time after they attack. I've played a grappler Barbarian myself and really enjoyed punching, then getting my free Grapple attempt every round. The mages can get in on the act as well with pseudo-AoE (Acid Splash) or debuffing (Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp) cantrips. Sadly, the Warlord-y Fighter gets nothing like this. Maybe another Fighting Style might be in order?</p><p></p><p>True! I think this is perfectly okay considering the other classes, but I'd love if there was a support Fighting Style at first level. After all, the Defender gets to do their thing with Protection, and other styles get bennies as well.</p><p></p><p>Agreed! I think people really underestimate the Battlemaster. Those maneuvers can be really powerful if applied in the right situations in actual play. And the baseline Fighter is pretty strong!</p><p></p><p></p><p>I really disagree with you here. Setting aside the edition warring, the Fighter gains more ASIs than the Paladin (meaning you can hit 20 Str/Dex while picking up the fighting style feat(s) of your choice a lot faster). Second Wind is comparable to or better than Lay On Hands with the short rest recharge and bonus action activation.</p><p>And the thing is, a Battle Master's nova is just as strong as a Paladin's. Even at level 5, you can Action Surge once and drop a Superiority Die on each attack. If you begin with Trip Attack, you'll gain Advantage on your next three (meaning very likely hits and a better chance of crits - which also double spent Superiority Dice), and follow up with nasty stuff like Disarming Attack or Pushing Attack (off a cliff!). If you finish off your first foe, just move to the next, rinse, and repeat.</p><p></p><p></p><p>True. I believe the low number of support maneuvers available is this - there are really only a few ways to grant advantage, and moving allies around only has so much use in Theater of the Mind (which is not universal but is designed for). Other posters have mentioned that action economy in 5E is curtailed, so I think that accounts for many more - granting the entire party another attack would be totally ridiculous.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="koga305, post: 6488438, member: 6747640"] Wow. A lot has happened in this thread since I left! Get ready for a mega-reply post. Interesting that many people's reply was simply "play a magical support class and refluff it." Personally, that's too far over the line for me - having to justify [I]all[/I] the powers of a Bard or Cleric as coming from a martial source seems difficult, and avoiding the most "magical" spells (it's hard to refluff Hold Person or Spirit Guardians as nonmagical) seems like you'd be gimping yourself. I'd rather play an explicitly magical character then try to refluff it as a martial one. That said, if it works for you and your table, go for it! This is true! It feels strange to build a Warlord-type character and end up with Intelligence as your dump stat. Really, there's no plausible Warlord-y use for it except the History skill. I agree in large part with you here. Certainly the Warlord-y Fighter can't match a Life Cleric in terms of healing or a Valor Bard in terms of buffing. And certainly, one of the design elements of 5E is that you can't straight-up beat the abilities a mage is good at - that is, nobody can compete with a Wizard's Fireball for taking out mobs or a Life Cleric's Heal spell for bringing someone back from low health. On the other hand, I'd say that with resources invested the abilities of a martial character can outpace those of a mage over time. This also fits the design ethos of 5E - sure, a mage can have really strong mobility from spells like Misty Step and Fly, but the Rogue can take an extra move or disengage every turn without expending resources. The Barbarian's damage resistance from Rage is miles better than Stoneskin because it lasts longer (counting Concentration) and doesn't compete for resources (you're doing it every combat, anyway) - and it comes at an earlier level, too. I'd argue the same is true for the Healer or Inspiring Leader feats. They may not match a Cleric's healing at its best, but Healer lets you heal 1d6+4+level HP per every Short Rest for every party member, which quickly outpaces a bunch of Cure Wounds spells. Similarly, with about twelve expertise dice per day the Battlemaster can afford to grant the Rogue extra attacks more than the Wizard can afford to cast Haste on a damage-dealer. Interesting idea here, but it doesn't really match the class design of 5E classes. If a Warlord-y Fighter can manage those abilities, then why shouldn't all Fighters get them? Maybe the solution for Warlord purists is to include a Martial Archetype that enhances the Fighter's normal abilities to have them buff the party, much like the Bard subclasses enhance the Bardic Inspiration feature into a debuffing or combat-buffing ability. Interesting point, but keep in mind Bless is widely considered one of the most powerful spells in the game. Certainly the ability to help your entire party at once (acting as a force multiplier) is a powerful one, and something the game lacks for martial characters at the moment. I agree that being more supportive is key to making an effective Warlord, but I don't think fiddly bonuses like this are the way to go - they're antethetical to the way the system is currently designed. Either give out dice like Bless and Bardic Inspiration, or simply grant advantage/disadvantage. I suspect if Wizards expands the Warlord-y options available, we'll see effects that mirror the Protection ability - simply grant Advantage on an attack, or Disadvantage on attempts to hit the character. This is really valuable! Although it's not perfect in my eyes, I actually really like the design of the Battlemaster as written and I suspect it's better than people think it is. Has your friend chosen exclusively Warlord-y maneuvers, or is he focusing on being an effective combatant himself as well? Thank you! Agreed. One thing to note, though - for many archetypes, there are actually "at-will" abilities that are more than a basic attack. For example, a Defender-y character can use Protection every round, and a battlefield controller with Shield Master can attempt to shove every time after they attack. I've played a grappler Barbarian myself and really enjoyed punching, then getting my free Grapple attempt every round. The mages can get in on the act as well with pseudo-AoE (Acid Splash) or debuffing (Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp) cantrips. Sadly, the Warlord-y Fighter gets nothing like this. Maybe another Fighting Style might be in order? True! I think this is perfectly okay considering the other classes, but I'd love if there was a support Fighting Style at first level. After all, the Defender gets to do their thing with Protection, and other styles get bennies as well. Agreed! I think people really underestimate the Battlemaster. Those maneuvers can be really powerful if applied in the right situations in actual play. And the baseline Fighter is pretty strong! I really disagree with you here. Setting aside the edition warring, the Fighter gains more ASIs than the Paladin (meaning you can hit 20 Str/Dex while picking up the fighting style feat(s) of your choice a lot faster). Second Wind is comparable to or better than Lay On Hands with the short rest recharge and bonus action activation. And the thing is, a Battle Master's nova is just as strong as a Paladin's. Even at level 5, you can Action Surge once and drop a Superiority Die on each attack. If you begin with Trip Attack, you'll gain Advantage on your next three (meaning very likely hits and a better chance of crits - which also double spent Superiority Dice), and follow up with nasty stuff like Disarming Attack or Pushing Attack (off a cliff!). If you finish off your first foe, just move to the next, rinse, and repeat. True. I believe the low number of support maneuvers available is this - there are really only a few ways to grant advantage, and moving allies around only has so much use in Theater of the Mind (which is not universal but is designed for). Other posters have mentioned that action economy in 5E is curtailed, so I think that accounts for many more - granting the entire party another attack would be totally ridiculous. [/QUOTE]
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