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<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7751426" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>Isn't Rule 0 considered a separate, albeit related, issue distinct from "fudging the dice"? </p><p></p><p>Where? The word "cheat" only occurs once in the 5E DMG in a villain NPC table (p. 95). The dice-rolling section (p. 235) does not prohibit players from cheating. It just suggests that if a player is engaging in behavior like scooping the dice before anyone can see them, to encourage as the GM that they be less secretive. Do note that this not a rules prohibition against cheating. Hell, right above it, the DMG says "Have Snacks," which makes that more of an explicit rule than "no cheating" for 5E. </p><p></p><p>You raise some good points in your later post. My preference here though is for some degree of consistency between the player and gamemaster. Either GM and players can't fudge <em>or</em> GM and players can fudge (both within reason). I'm not a fan, however, of accusing players of cheating as a negative while also saying that "the GM can't cheat" but that they can fudge because that is intended as a positive. It strikes me as an absurd and somewhat hypocritical double-standard: "It's cool when law enforcement breaks the law when it's done for 'the greater good,' but there will be hell to pay if any other regular citizen breaks the law, no matter the infraction." </p><p></p><p>Why can't players "fudge" dice to maximize their fun? </p><p>- <em>Because then the victory is not earned:</em> But then how does it become earned when the GM fudges? </p><p>- <em>Because it benefits only the player but not the group:</em> Is that necessarily true? Can a player not fudge their roll for the sake of the group's fun? Does the GM fudging always benefit the group or is not often meant to benefit particular players? </p><p>- <em>Because it benefits the character and not the player:</em> Yeah, but the player is playing the character and if the player is not having fun because of a bad string of luck regarding said character, then how meaningful is this distinction? And why can't a player have a certain latitude of authority over "fudging" that affects their character and personal fun? And is this not the GM implicitly communicating then that they know what's best for the player's fun? </p><p>- <em>Because they are not authorized to do so:</em> still waiting for this one. </p><p></p><p>As I said much earlier, I have experienced less cheating in games when the game system mechanics empower the players to have a degree of personal authority over the narrative situations where cheating often occurs and possess ways to curtail failure at critical points: what we may paradoxically call "authorized cheating." Fate, for example, has fate points with a variety of uses (e.g., re-roll, +2 bonus to roll, declare a story detail, etc.) and succeed-at-a-cost mechanics. These mechanics provide less incentive for cheating, because they essentially accomplish the greater control of agency that often spurs the cheating. I can take the same set of players and see less cheating in Fate than I would in D&D. I am not claiming that this makes Fate a better game than D&D, but I do think that cultural norms do develop around how games are played that is partially rooted in their associated mechanics. </p><p></p><p>If the mechanical effectiveness of your character is rooted in rolling for stats, there is a potential incentive to fudge your rolls. If your character concept is dependent on how well you roll your stats, then you have a potential incentive to fudge your rolls. And so on... I imagine that it would be a non-controversial argument if I were to put forth that cheating likely occurs at a lower frequency in D&D games that use standard arrays or point buys than in dice-rolling methods.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7751426, member: 5142"] Isn't Rule 0 considered a separate, albeit related, issue distinct from "fudging the dice"? Where? The word "cheat" only occurs once in the 5E DMG in a villain NPC table (p. 95). The dice-rolling section (p. 235) does not prohibit players from cheating. It just suggests that if a player is engaging in behavior like scooping the dice before anyone can see them, to encourage as the GM that they be less secretive. Do note that this not a rules prohibition against cheating. Hell, right above it, the DMG says "Have Snacks," which makes that more of an explicit rule than "no cheating" for 5E. You raise some good points in your later post. My preference here though is for some degree of consistency between the player and gamemaster. Either GM and players can't fudge [I]or[/I] GM and players can fudge (both within reason). I'm not a fan, however, of accusing players of cheating as a negative while also saying that "the GM can't cheat" but that they can fudge because that is intended as a positive. It strikes me as an absurd and somewhat hypocritical double-standard: "It's cool when law enforcement breaks the law when it's done for 'the greater good,' but there will be hell to pay if any other regular citizen breaks the law, no matter the infraction." Why can't players "fudge" dice to maximize their fun? - [I]Because then the victory is not earned:[/I] But then how does it become earned when the GM fudges? - [I]Because it benefits only the player but not the group:[/I] Is that necessarily true? Can a player not fudge their roll for the sake of the group's fun? Does the GM fudging always benefit the group or is not often meant to benefit particular players? - [I]Because it benefits the character and not the player:[/I] Yeah, but the player is playing the character and if the player is not having fun because of a bad string of luck regarding said character, then how meaningful is this distinction? And why can't a player have a certain latitude of authority over "fudging" that affects their character and personal fun? And is this not the GM implicitly communicating then that they know what's best for the player's fun? - [I]Because they are not authorized to do so:[/I] still waiting for this one. As I said much earlier, I have experienced less cheating in games when the game system mechanics empower the players to have a degree of personal authority over the narrative situations where cheating often occurs and possess ways to curtail failure at critical points: what we may paradoxically call "authorized cheating." Fate, for example, has fate points with a variety of uses (e.g., re-roll, +2 bonus to roll, declare a story detail, etc.) and succeed-at-a-cost mechanics. These mechanics provide less incentive for cheating, because they essentially accomplish the greater control of agency that often spurs the cheating. I can take the same set of players and see less cheating in Fate than I would in D&D. I am not claiming that this makes Fate a better game than D&D, but I do think that cultural norms do develop around how games are played that is partially rooted in their associated mechanics. If the mechanical effectiveness of your character is rooted in rolling for stats, there is a potential incentive to fudge your rolls. If your character concept is dependent on how well you roll your stats, then you have a potential incentive to fudge your rolls. And so on... I imagine that it would be a non-controversial argument if I were to put forth that cheating likely occurs at a lower frequency in D&D games that use standard arrays or point buys than in dice-rolling methods. [/QUOTE]
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