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<blockquote data-quote="kenmarable" data-source="post: 7751441" data-attributes="member: 40359"><p>The issue of a possible double-standard is good one. </p><p>For me, there seems to be two relevant pieces. <strong>One, it comes down to what I said earlier that it all depends on what the entire group would think if they knew.</strong></p><p></p><p>Maybe I’m in the minority here, but in my groups that have DM fudging, we are open about it. We don’t keep it secret. Usually not to the level of announcing every fudged roll, but we have never had a group with a fudging DM where the players weren’t aware that DM fudging might occur, and sometimes when it happens it was even openly announced. A good example would be with character death without easy means of revival (less of an issue more recent editions, but sometimes circumstances prevent even death saves):</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I’ve played in groups where character death was no big deal, and the player just sits out and rolls up a new PC and waits until they can get back in. Groups that are more focused towards the challenge side of RPGs are more likely to be like this. Knowing they succeeded at the challenge due to fudged rolls would be disappointing (and therefore not maximizing the fun, so fudging shouldn’t happen). <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I have also played in groups where if a character dies and the player has to sit out the action for a while, that’s the worst possible outcome and should be avoided even if it means ignoring rules or rolls. In my experience this can be everything from making a crit into a non-crit, saying another PC has enough movement/actions to get there in time to rescue even if they don’t, or even once or twice retroactively saying they attacked someone else (although that is very rare). In nearly all of those kinds of cases, we are actually open about the bending of rules to allow it – whether it is ignoring the result of a die roll (“Wow, that should have critted, but I’ll make it a normal hit.”) or allowing something to work that shouldn’t or retroactively changing an action, etc.. Groups with this amount of fudging tend to be ones more interested in the escapism and heroics than the challenge and actually appreciate DM fudging. (“Thanks for not killing me there. That would’ve sucked!”)</li> </ul><p></p><p>So it really depends on the group, and if the DM doesn’t feel comfortably telling the players they might fudge some things to keep it fun, then, yes, that is a problem. If you can’t be open about it (at least in general if not at each instance), then I agree that it shouldn’t be happening. I also disagree that RAW state DM’s can fudge (but they should pretend not to so that the players don’t know). Maybe not at the level of each roll, but the players should definitely be aware if that sort of thing is happening in general.</p><p></p><p>But even if it is openly acknowledged, why are many groups comfortable with DM “fudging” but not player “cheating”? </p><p></p><p><strong>The second piece is I think the different roles in the game. Players are in control of only their PC in that world. DMs, however, are basically in control of all of the rest of reality.</strong> There is a lot of trust and responsibility put into DMs to make it an interesting game and reality for everyone at the table. So if the bending of rules and rolls is acceptable at all, it makes some sense to leave that responsibility with the DM alone, since so much power over the game reality already rests there and it also avoids conflicting fudging by having only 1 person authorized to do that. </p><p></p><p>Even with decades of gaming, honestly, my experience is 95% D&D (and PF), so that’s what I’m most familiar with. Games that allow more player control of reality beyond their character sound interesting, but unfortunately a lot of people I game with don’t really want that control. *shrug* They, in a sense, are looking to be entertained by the DM in an interactive story. They want to be actors playing characters and let the DM be director and writer.</p><p></p><p>Although there has been some slight open fudging by players on rare occasion in my games. For example, it seems that players “accidentally only dropped the die and didn’t really roll it” only if the number is really bad. That results in a can-I-reroll look to the DM, and then the DM does an eyeroll and says whether to reroll it or not. That doesn’t happen often, but seeing as how it pretty much <em>never</em> happens when the number is good or the roll not important, yeah, I’d say there’s some slight player fudging happening, although again, it’s out in the open (and far, far rarer than DM fudging). This is different from a player we knew when we were young that would have 2 dice of the same color and would roll one but point to the other that he had put sitting there on 20. That seems to me to be a very different sort of thing, especially considering the element of deception and not wanting to be found out.</p><p></p><p><strong>But overall, I think the inconsistency is more an issue of practicalness than principle. It's less "by the rules of this game 1 person gets to cheat and no one else can" as much as "some fudging makes the game more fun (for some groups) but it's less effective and can easily become a mess if everyone does it, so let's just leave it up to the DM, they already take care of everything else anyway."</strong> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>If I was in a group where a player felt that inconsistency wasn't fair, that's perfectly valid and I'd be fine with making it consistent (likely by removing DM fudging since I think no-fudging would work FAR better than everyone-fudging in practice). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But, it all comes down to what the group is comfortable with. Your comment about stats is a good one. Back when we first started in 1e, trying to get good stats was enough of an issue for us that there certainly was incentive to cheat/fudge rolls. So we instituted rolling in front of others, but also house ruled some things that were previously done secretly like “you can throw away an entire set of 6 stats if they are bad” to codify as acceptable to the group. (And if someone wanted to keep rerolling and throwing out sets over and over to try and get a great one, he had to do it in front of us where we could mock him if he was overdoing it.) <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> We also even introduced “Reroll 1’s and 2’s” for stats and hit points at the behest of a couple players since we all were fine with everyone using it. Again, for us, it’s been about being open with the entire group about this sort of thing rather than keeping it secret that makes it acceptable.</p><p></p><p></p><p><em>(Yikes! Sorry about the wall of text! Added some formatting to help break it up, but I understand if you just scroll by. Although that means you probably didn't read this. Hmm.)</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="kenmarable, post: 7751441, member: 40359"] The issue of a possible double-standard is good one. For me, there seems to be two relevant pieces. [b]One, it comes down to what I said earlier that it all depends on what the entire group would think if they knew.[/b] Maybe I’m in the minority here, but in my groups that have DM fudging, we are open about it. We don’t keep it secret. Usually not to the level of announcing every fudged roll, but we have never had a group with a fudging DM where the players weren’t aware that DM fudging might occur, and sometimes when it happens it was even openly announced. A good example would be with character death without easy means of revival (less of an issue more recent editions, but sometimes circumstances prevent even death saves): [list] [*]I’ve played in groups where character death was no big deal, and the player just sits out and rolls up a new PC and waits until they can get back in. Groups that are more focused towards the challenge side of RPGs are more likely to be like this. Knowing they succeeded at the challenge due to fudged rolls would be disappointing (and therefore not maximizing the fun, so fudging shouldn’t happen). [*]I have also played in groups where if a character dies and the player has to sit out the action for a while, that’s the worst possible outcome and should be avoided even if it means ignoring rules or rolls. In my experience this can be everything from making a crit into a non-crit, saying another PC has enough movement/actions to get there in time to rescue even if they don’t, or even once or twice retroactively saying they attacked someone else (although that is very rare). In nearly all of those kinds of cases, we are actually open about the bending of rules to allow it – whether it is ignoring the result of a die roll (“Wow, that should have critted, but I’ll make it a normal hit.”) or allowing something to work that shouldn’t or retroactively changing an action, etc.. Groups with this amount of fudging tend to be ones more interested in the escapism and heroics than the challenge and actually appreciate DM fudging. (“Thanks for not killing me there. That would’ve sucked!”) [/list] So it really depends on the group, and if the DM doesn’t feel comfortably telling the players they might fudge some things to keep it fun, then, yes, that is a problem. If you can’t be open about it (at least in general if not at each instance), then I agree that it shouldn’t be happening. I also disagree that RAW state DM’s can fudge (but they should pretend not to so that the players don’t know). Maybe not at the level of each roll, but the players should definitely be aware if that sort of thing is happening in general. But even if it is openly acknowledged, why are many groups comfortable with DM “fudging” but not player “cheating”? [b]The second piece is I think the different roles in the game. Players are in control of only their PC in that world. DMs, however, are basically in control of all of the rest of reality.[/b] There is a lot of trust and responsibility put into DMs to make it an interesting game and reality for everyone at the table. So if the bending of rules and rolls is acceptable at all, it makes some sense to leave that responsibility with the DM alone, since so much power over the game reality already rests there and it also avoids conflicting fudging by having only 1 person authorized to do that. Even with decades of gaming, honestly, my experience is 95% D&D (and PF), so that’s what I’m most familiar with. Games that allow more player control of reality beyond their character sound interesting, but unfortunately a lot of people I game with don’t really want that control. *shrug* They, in a sense, are looking to be entertained by the DM in an interactive story. They want to be actors playing characters and let the DM be director and writer. Although there has been some slight open fudging by players on rare occasion in my games. For example, it seems that players “accidentally only dropped the die and didn’t really roll it” only if the number is really bad. That results in a can-I-reroll look to the DM, and then the DM does an eyeroll and says whether to reroll it or not. That doesn’t happen often, but seeing as how it pretty much [i]never[/i] happens when the number is good or the roll not important, yeah, I’d say there’s some slight player fudging happening, although again, it’s out in the open (and far, far rarer than DM fudging). This is different from a player we knew when we were young that would have 2 dice of the same color and would roll one but point to the other that he had put sitting there on 20. That seems to me to be a very different sort of thing, especially considering the element of deception and not wanting to be found out. [b]But overall, I think the inconsistency is more an issue of practicalness than principle. It's less "by the rules of this game 1 person gets to cheat and no one else can" as much as "some fudging makes the game more fun (for some groups) but it's less effective and can easily become a mess if everyone does it, so let's just leave it up to the DM, they already take care of everything else anyway."[/b] :) If I was in a group where a player felt that inconsistency wasn't fair, that's perfectly valid and I'd be fine with making it consistent (likely by removing DM fudging since I think no-fudging would work FAR better than everyone-fudging in practice). But, it all comes down to what the group is comfortable with. Your comment about stats is a good one. Back when we first started in 1e, trying to get good stats was enough of an issue for us that there certainly was incentive to cheat/fudge rolls. So we instituted rolling in front of others, but also house ruled some things that were previously done secretly like “you can throw away an entire set of 6 stats if they are bad” to codify as acceptable to the group. (And if someone wanted to keep rerolling and throwing out sets over and over to try and get a great one, he had to do it in front of us where we could mock him if he was overdoing it.) :) We also even introduced “Reroll 1’s and 2’s” for stats and hit points at the behest of a couple players since we all were fine with everyone using it. Again, for us, it’s been about being open with the entire group about this sort of thing rather than keeping it secret that makes it acceptable. [i](Yikes! Sorry about the wall of text! Added some formatting to help break it up, but I understand if you just scroll by. Although that means you probably didn't read this. Hmm.)[/i] [/QUOTE]
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