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<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7753513" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>Circular reasoning is a fallacy, though you probably intend to argue that your circular reasoning is not circular. Perhaps by cleverly insisting that it's not circular reasoning because it is in fact oval reasoning. </p><p></p><p>Unless I am mistaken, you answered your own question: you engaged in that rule <em>and cheated</em> ergo you cheated. </p><p></p><p>If that were the case, then we would not be at 30+ pages of listening to people bending over backwards to justify their cheating as GMs, would we? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /> </p><p></p><p>Um, yes they were because the GM is being evasive about their cheating and shifting the goal posts to that end. </p><p></p><p>False Equivalence? You asked if you were authorized to cheat whether or not it would be cheating. In my example, the parents authorized the kid to cheat. Your question did not stipulate a rules change. </p><p></p><p>But isn't ignoring the rules part of Rule Zero? But you are right that cheating is different from a rules change. And that is part of my problem with arguing about Rule Zero. (1) It encompasses too many various game permissions (e.g., house rules, gm fiat, gm fudging/cheating, etc.) to be of any real practical use, and in so doing, (2) it imparts too much carte blanche authority to a singular figure (i.e., the GM). As it stands now in this thread, Rule Zero essentially amounts to the GM forcing the other plays to submit to their whims in a game of Calvin Ball while insisting that its for their own good. Such a rule probably made more sense in the early days when the game was far more ambiguous and unknown, with the GM being the only real expert on the rules, but that is less the case with how many games are currently played. </p><p></p><p>I would personally prefer if more RPGs made a distinction between House Rules/Game Hacks, GM Fiat, and GM Fudging, and possibly a few other permissions I am forgetting, instead of conflating all of them within the singular, but nebulous and potentially Social Contract-breaking, Rule Zero. </p><p></p><p>House Rules/Games Hacks: that authority rests with the GM <em>and players</em>. Changes to the rules in mid-play should be discussed by all participants. </p><p></p><p>GM Fiat: although ultimate authority makes the GM the final arbiter of the rules, the GM can and should discuss this with the group such that expectations are clear. </p><p></p><p>FM Fudging: Let's call a spade a spade and just admit that it's cheating.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7753513, member: 5142"] Circular reasoning is a fallacy, though you probably intend to argue that your circular reasoning is not circular. Perhaps by cleverly insisting that it's not circular reasoning because it is in fact oval reasoning. Unless I am mistaken, you answered your own question: you engaged in that rule [I]and cheated[/I] ergo you cheated. If that were the case, then we would not be at 30+ pages of listening to people bending over backwards to justify their cheating as GMs, would we? :erm: Um, yes they were because the GM is being evasive about their cheating and shifting the goal posts to that end. False Equivalence? You asked if you were authorized to cheat whether or not it would be cheating. In my example, the parents authorized the kid to cheat. Your question did not stipulate a rules change. But isn't ignoring the rules part of Rule Zero? But you are right that cheating is different from a rules change. And that is part of my problem with arguing about Rule Zero. (1) It encompasses too many various game permissions (e.g., house rules, gm fiat, gm fudging/cheating, etc.) to be of any real practical use, and in so doing, (2) it imparts too much carte blanche authority to a singular figure (i.e., the GM). As it stands now in this thread, Rule Zero essentially amounts to the GM forcing the other plays to submit to their whims in a game of Calvin Ball while insisting that its for their own good. Such a rule probably made more sense in the early days when the game was far more ambiguous and unknown, with the GM being the only real expert on the rules, but that is less the case with how many games are currently played. I would personally prefer if more RPGs made a distinction between House Rules/Game Hacks, GM Fiat, and GM Fudging, and possibly a few other permissions I am forgetting, instead of conflating all of them within the singular, but nebulous and potentially Social Contract-breaking, Rule Zero. House Rules/Games Hacks: that authority rests with the GM [I]and players[/I]. Changes to the rules in mid-play should be discussed by all participants. GM Fiat: although ultimate authority makes the GM the final arbiter of the rules, the GM can and should discuss this with the group such that expectations are clear. FM Fudging: Let's call a spade a spade and just admit that it's cheating. [/QUOTE]
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