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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7754347" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>If the rules (even a house rule) states the GM, at their discretion, can alter a roll, then it is just as defined as fate points or the GM Intrusion mechanic. It is very broad, but it defines who (the GM), when (at their discretion), and what (can alter or overrule the dice). These criteria are even in the AD&D DMG. </p><p></p><p>You are not breaking a rule, any more than the concept that specific rules overrule general rules. You are engaging a rule that overrides another rule. It is an exception. </p><p></p><p>Take baseball. When you break down the structure of the rules it works like this:</p><p></p><p>If the batter hits the ball, they may move to 1st base.</p><p>Unless the ball is foul, in which case it is a strike.</p><p>Or if a player catches it before it touches the ground, then they are out.</p><p>Or if the ball is thrown to first base before you reach it, then they are out.</p><p>Or if somebody tags you before you reach first base, then they are out.</p><p></p><p>Or AD&D:</p><p></p><p>The result of the die rolled is as shown;</p><p>Unless there are modifiers due to abilities, magic, or other circumstances such as cover.</p><p>Or if the GM overrules the roll for any reason.</p><p></p><p>The structure of the rule is the same. This is the result unless one of these other circumstances apply. One of the circumstances happens to be entirely up to the discretion of the GM. </p><p></p><p>This is not altered by additional rules, such as:</p><p></p><p>The GM can roll the dice in secret if desired or appropriate.</p><p>The result of the die rolled is as shown;</p><p>Unless there are modifiers due to abilities, magic, or other circumstances such as cover.</p><p>Or if the GM overrules the roll for any reason.</p><p></p><p>Secrecy isn’t a defining factor. Other things can be secret but not alter the results. </p><p></p><p>Deception as well, which is different than fraudulent or secret. Bluffing in poker isn’t cheating. </p><p></p><p>A rule that overrides another rule isn’t cheating either. Stealing a base in baseball isn’t cheating. The rule is you can’t just run from one base to the next. That is overruled by the rule that states you can as long as you best the ball to that base.</p><p></p><p>The fact that people incorrectly use the term is also irrelevant. We should be championing the use of proper terminology. Not perpetuating the wrong terminology, especially when that terminology has negative connotations.</p><p></p><p>Overruling a die roll is not being dishonest. Especially in cases like mine where the die is out in the open for all to see. But even when it’s not, it’s not dishonest. </p><p></p><p>There is no requirement for such a rule to be equivalent to the rules the PC uses. The mechanic is clear: the GM makes a decision, they overrule the dice. No other mechanic other than defining the rule is needed.</p><p></p><p>You might want a more restrictive rule, and that’s fair. You might want a rule that doesn’t include all of the criteria of: at will; at their discretion; hidden; deceptive. </p><p></p><p>But none of these criteria, alone or together, constitute cheating. Only in the absence of a rule to allow them, is it cheating.</p><p></p><p>Cheating cannot by definition be institutionalized. If it’s allowed by the rules it is not cheating.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7754347, member: 6778044"] If the rules (even a house rule) states the GM, at their discretion, can alter a roll, then it is just as defined as fate points or the GM Intrusion mechanic. It is very broad, but it defines who (the GM), when (at their discretion), and what (can alter or overrule the dice). These criteria are even in the AD&D DMG. You are not breaking a rule, any more than the concept that specific rules overrule general rules. You are engaging a rule that overrides another rule. It is an exception. Take baseball. When you break down the structure of the rules it works like this: If the batter hits the ball, they may move to 1st base. Unless the ball is foul, in which case it is a strike. Or if a player catches it before it touches the ground, then they are out. Or if the ball is thrown to first base before you reach it, then they are out. Or if somebody tags you before you reach first base, then they are out. Or AD&D: The result of the die rolled is as shown; Unless there are modifiers due to abilities, magic, or other circumstances such as cover. Or if the GM overrules the roll for any reason. The structure of the rule is the same. This is the result unless one of these other circumstances apply. One of the circumstances happens to be entirely up to the discretion of the GM. This is not altered by additional rules, such as: The GM can roll the dice in secret if desired or appropriate. The result of the die rolled is as shown; Unless there are modifiers due to abilities, magic, or other circumstances such as cover. Or if the GM overrules the roll for any reason. Secrecy isn’t a defining factor. Other things can be secret but not alter the results. Deception as well, which is different than fraudulent or secret. Bluffing in poker isn’t cheating. A rule that overrides another rule isn’t cheating either. Stealing a base in baseball isn’t cheating. The rule is you can’t just run from one base to the next. That is overruled by the rule that states you can as long as you best the ball to that base. The fact that people incorrectly use the term is also irrelevant. We should be championing the use of proper terminology. Not perpetuating the wrong terminology, especially when that terminology has negative connotations. Overruling a die roll is not being dishonest. Especially in cases like mine where the die is out in the open for all to see. But even when it’s not, it’s not dishonest. There is no requirement for such a rule to be equivalent to the rules the PC uses. The mechanic is clear: the GM makes a decision, they overrule the dice. No other mechanic other than defining the rule is needed. You might want a more restrictive rule, and that’s fair. You might want a rule that doesn’t include all of the criteria of: at will; at their discretion; hidden; deceptive. But none of these criteria, alone or together, constitute cheating. Only in the absence of a rule to allow them, is it cheating. Cheating cannot by definition be institutionalized. If it’s allowed by the rules it is not cheating. [/QUOTE]
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