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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7754348" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>It's not a default assumption in Moldvay basic that a character will progress through levels. Many, perhaps most, PCs will die young; and even for those that don't die, there's the possibility of not finding much treasure (through bad luck or bad play) and hence not levelling.</p><p></p><p>In Moldvay Basic, levels have to be <em>earned</em> (in the sense that a player has to play well to earn the XP to level his/her PC). That's not the case in 4e. Levels aren't something you earn, any more than turning up to a session is something that is earned.</p><p></p><p>All I can do is repeat - not all RPGing is wargaming.</p><p></p><p>Starting with the last sentence - in some RPGs PC death is a possibility, but only if the player deliberately stakes it. In those systems there is no generic risk of death, and hence the only way the player might risk not being able to play the same character is if s/he choose to put that on the table.</p><p></p><p>And then turning to the main thesis: it's simply not true that, in 4e, <em>you as a PC are trying to survive the various risks and challenges posed by the game</em>. It's not a wargame. It's not a survival game. It's a game about impacting the (imagined) world. If you don't play your PC, there is no payoff. If someone wants to turn up week-on-week and just sit in the corner I'm not going to begrudge them the oxygen. If they want to write on a bit of paper that they're a 20th level oxygen-breather, well they can be my guest in respect of that also.</p><p></p><p>In the meantime, the rest of us will actually be playing the game.</p><p></p><p>4e does not reward playing your PC cautiously, any more than it rewards sitting on the couch watching TV.</p><p></p><p>You know all those people who complained that they don't like 4e because it incentivises gonzo action of over-the-top heroics? I don't share their aesthetic preferences, but they're right about what the game incentivises.</p><p></p><p>This is mere assertion, and false at that.</p><p></p><p>Alll levelling is in changing the numbers on your sheet, and changing the content of the story that is being told about your PC. Is that a reward? Yes, if it's hard to get and people you hang out with value the skill of getting it - which is how it seems to have worked at Gygax's table. No, if the number on your sheet is just a proxy for the number of sessions you've attended, and if it's part of the plan from the get-go that the story will change in those sorts of ways.</p><p></p><p>Instead of trying to fit all RPGs into some procrustean framework, look at how they actually work. Instead of insisting that something that is not a reward is one, why not ask what the actual reward is, what the payoff is, for playing 4e?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7754348, member: 42582"] It's not a default assumption in Moldvay basic that a character will progress through levels. Many, perhaps most, PCs will die young; and even for those that don't die, there's the possibility of not finding much treasure (through bad luck or bad play) and hence not levelling. In Moldvay Basic, levels have to be [I]earned[/I] (in the sense that a player has to play well to earn the XP to level his/her PC). That's not the case in 4e. Levels aren't something you earn, any more than turning up to a session is something that is earned. All I can do is repeat - not all RPGing is wargaming. Starting with the last sentence - in some RPGs PC death is a possibility, but only if the player deliberately stakes it. In those systems there is no generic risk of death, and hence the only way the player might risk not being able to play the same character is if s/he choose to put that on the table. And then turning to the main thesis: it's simply not true that, in 4e, [I]you as a PC are trying to survive the various risks and challenges posed by the game[/I]. It's not a wargame. It's not a survival game. It's a game about impacting the (imagined) world. If you don't play your PC, there is no payoff. If someone wants to turn up week-on-week and just sit in the corner I'm not going to begrudge them the oxygen. If they want to write on a bit of paper that they're a 20th level oxygen-breather, well they can be my guest in respect of that also. In the meantime, the rest of us will actually be playing the game. 4e does not reward playing your PC cautiously, any more than it rewards sitting on the couch watching TV. You know all those people who complained that they don't like 4e because it incentivises gonzo action of over-the-top heroics? I don't share their aesthetic preferences, but they're right about what the game incentivises. This is mere assertion, and false at that. Alll levelling is in changing the numbers on your sheet, and changing the content of the story that is being told about your PC. Is that a reward? Yes, if it's hard to get and people you hang out with value the skill of getting it - which is how it seems to have worked at Gygax's table. No, if the number on your sheet is just a proxy for the number of sessions you've attended, and if it's part of the plan from the get-go that the story will change in those sorts of ways. Instead of trying to fit all RPGs into some procrustean framework, look at how they actually work. Instead of insisting that something that is not a reward is one, why not ask what the actual reward is, what the payoff is, for playing 4e? [/QUOTE]
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