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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7754557" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>This is another of those cases where I want to ask, have you actually played or even read the rules for the game you're talking about?</p><p></p><p>And do you have any actual evidence?</p><p></p><p>Have you played 4e? Or played with the sort of "milestone" systems [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] is talking about? If not, how do you know what affect those games and those systems have on player behaviour?</p><p></p><p>Do you know how Dungeon World awards XP for "embracing an aspect of one's character"? Here is the relevant text (from p 78 of the rulebook):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>End of Session</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">When you reach the end of a session, choose one of your bonds that you feel is resolved (completely explored, no longer relevant, or otherwise). Ask the player of the character you have the bond with if they agree. If they do, mark XP and write a new bond with whomever you wish.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Once bonds have been updated look at your alignment. If you fulfilled that alignment at least once this session, mark XP. Then answer these three questions as a group:</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">• Did we learn something new and important about the world?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">• Did we overcome a notable monster or enemy?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">• Did we loot a memorable treasure?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">For each “yes” answer everyone marks XP.</p><p></p><p>No favouritism. No GM discretion required. And (with respect to bond XP) a strong incentive to character-focused interaction between players so as to reach mutual agreement that bonds are being fully explored and resolved.</p><p></p><p>There are RPGs out there which are more than just rehashes of Gygax's D&D with slightly differnt dice rolling conventions.</p><p></p><p>No. In 4e there is no default assumption that players will <em>try</em> to progress through levels. It's not something you have to try to do; it's a side effect of playing the game. Likewise AD&D no one has to <em>try</em> to make gametime pass - the marking off of turns, hours and days is something the GM does as part of the course of play.</p><p></p><p>I'm talking about PC build.</p><p></p><p>Have you played 4e? Have you undertaken a systematic consideration of how the system works?</p><p></p><p>The goal in 4e is <em>not</em> survival. The goal is to impact the fiction. Player characters have an extreme depth of resources for both survival purposes (healing surges, and various abilities to unlock them) and active purposes (skill bonuses, various powers, etc). Expending the former is simply a means to an end.</p><p></p><p>And those healing surges etc are not evenly allocated. The game assumes that some PCs will "take the heat" and other won't. If a player wants to play a character who doesn't "take the heat", then s/he builds a rogue or a ranger (of a certain sort) or a wizard. But someone who builds (say) a fighter or a warlord or a paladin and then tries to avoid "taking the heat" is just dealing him-/herself out of the game.</p><p></p><p>Not to mention, that a big part of both the encounter design in 4e, and the mechanical design of opponents (both monsters/NPCs and traps/hazards), is to allow the GM to bring the heat to the players. And then the players themselves have resources to respond to that, to defend one another if they want to, or to expose others to risk if they want to.</p><p></p><p>Less important point: that person will not become higher level than everyone else. The default in 4e is that everyone is the same level.</p><p></p><p>More important point, and reiteration: if, in 4e, I want to play a "cautious character" then I just build one. A rogue or ranger would be a good start, or certain sorts of warlock. But the play of the game is not going to make me safer than anyone else. <em>Caution</em> is an aspect of PC colour and personality and method, not a power-gaming tactic. Which goes back to the point that not all RPGs are wargames.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7754557, member: 42582"] This is another of those cases where I want to ask, have you actually played or even read the rules for the game you're talking about? And do you have any actual evidence? Have you played 4e? Or played with the sort of "milestone" systems [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] is talking about? If not, how do you know what affect those games and those systems have on player behaviour? Do you know how Dungeon World awards XP for "embracing an aspect of one's character"? Here is the relevant text (from p 78 of the rulebook): [indent][U]End of Session[/U] When you reach the end of a session, choose one of your bonds that you feel is resolved (completely explored, no longer relevant, or otherwise). Ask the player of the character you have the bond with if they agree. If they do, mark XP and write a new bond with whomever you wish. Once bonds have been updated look at your alignment. If you fulfilled that alignment at least once this session, mark XP. Then answer these three questions as a group: • Did we learn something new and important about the world? • Did we overcome a notable monster or enemy? • Did we loot a memorable treasure? For each “yes” answer everyone marks XP.[/indent] No favouritism. No GM discretion required. And (with respect to bond XP) a strong incentive to character-focused interaction between players so as to reach mutual agreement that bonds are being fully explored and resolved. There are RPGs out there which are more than just rehashes of Gygax's D&D with slightly differnt dice rolling conventions. No. In 4e there is no default assumption that players will [I]try[/I] to progress through levels. It's not something you have to try to do; it's a side effect of playing the game. Likewise AD&D no one has to [I]try[/I] to make gametime pass - the marking off of turns, hours and days is something the GM does as part of the course of play. I'm talking about PC build. Have you played 4e? Have you undertaken a systematic consideration of how the system works? The goal in 4e is [I]not[/I] survival. The goal is to impact the fiction. Player characters have an extreme depth of resources for both survival purposes (healing surges, and various abilities to unlock them) and active purposes (skill bonuses, various powers, etc). Expending the former is simply a means to an end. And those healing surges etc are not evenly allocated. The game assumes that some PCs will "take the heat" and other won't. If a player wants to play a character who doesn't "take the heat", then s/he builds a rogue or a ranger (of a certain sort) or a wizard. But someone who builds (say) a fighter or a warlord or a paladin and then tries to avoid "taking the heat" is just dealing him-/herself out of the game. Not to mention, that a big part of both the encounter design in 4e, and the mechanical design of opponents (both monsters/NPCs and traps/hazards), is to allow the GM to bring the heat to the players. And then the players themselves have resources to respond to that, to defend one another if they want to, or to expose others to risk if they want to. Less important point: that person will not become higher level than everyone else. The default in 4e is that everyone is the same level. More important point, and reiteration: if, in 4e, I want to play a "cautious character" then I just build one. A rogue or ranger would be a good start, or certain sorts of warlock. But the play of the game is not going to make me safer than anyone else. [I]Caution[/I] is an aspect of PC colour and personality and method, not a power-gaming tactic. Which goes back to the point that not all RPGs are wargames. [/QUOTE]
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