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General Tabletop Discussion
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Experts, PC and Class Skill Changes - please critique!
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<blockquote data-quote="Lorehead" data-source="post: 2827428" data-attributes="member: 40086"><p>I don't see your point.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If you add a merchant class, it would be reasonable to give it some niche protection. (The artificer is a good place to start, and I would much prefer giving merchants a bonus than taking away benefits that are both flavorful and balanced.) That wasn't the original suggestion, however. The stated purpose of this idea is to prevent PCs from being as good at a craft or profession as NPCs.</p><p></p><p>A few years ago, I played in a game with two people whose characters wanted to open shops and practice a trade. One was a gnome who wanted to make magical toys for the kids, and one was a dwarf who wanted to be a blacksmith. The DM, for reasons which remain opaque to me, apparently felt that his job was to thwart these plans. The gnome learned that he couldn't run a shop on his own and that any help he found would only get in his way. The dwarf learned that he could only practice his trade by completing a test for his guild. Here's a compressed version:</p><p></p><p>DM: "You must create a suit of masterwork plate mail."</p><p></p><p>Much looking-up of rules.</p><p></p><p>PC: "So, that's a DC 20? I take ten."</p><p></p><p>DM: "You fail. You took too long to finish. You can try again in a year."</p><p></p><p>PC: "But I spent <em>feats</em> on this!"</p><p></p><p></p><p>"Fix" implies that something is broken. NPCs do not need niche protection. A dwarf fighter who can also create non-magical, masterwork armor is not overpowered. If you want your NPC experts to be better at running a business than the PCs, give them more levels or have them invest feats. This actively discourages players from taking less powerful, more flavorful skills and feats. It also rules out the common scenario of the retired adventurer who runs a business.</p><p></p><p></p><p>3.0 Skill Focus didn't do that. (<em>PH 3.0</em> 85)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. My point exactly.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I was thinking of this comment: "I have to say in defense of 'what does the Expert do during an adventure when he's not crafting or appraising or professioning?' that it's odd that a fighter learns how to smith when he's out in the the middle of a dungeon - and he can match the balcksmith who is staying at home smithing all day long, year after year."</p><p></p><p></p><p>This rule is much better than the first attempt, lost in the crash. I think this is a terrible idea. It adds no options, but removes many interesting and balanced ones. I strongly advise you not to cripple the ability of adventurers to learn these skills. If you still think, at this point, that I only believe this because it's "something a little radical," I've completely failed to express my concerns.</p><p></p><p>The <em>DMG II</em> has a good system for running businesses and guilds. You might try making stay-at-home blacksmiths better-connected, more influential within their guilds, or better with a broad range of business skills, but not necessarily better at making weapons. Even so, with the investment of a few feats, they'll be better at that, too.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Then your definition of "20th level blacksmith" is too narrow. You don't even solve the supposed problem: you just force fighters to play an exp 1/ftr 19 and give up even more combat ability. I see no reason to house rule that a fighter <em>can't</em> learn how to forge a masterwork longsword. You could even use that as a character hook: he's constantly experimenting with new weapons and techniques, and testing out his creations, in order to improve his blacksmithing. At present, you could even make the local blacksmith a retired adventurer or a rogue by night. Under your rules, he must either be an expert or incompetent.</p><p></p><p>I doubt that many players will share your objection to the idea of a PC adventurer outshining a NPC. In most campaigns, whether a PC is as good at making non-magical items as a NPC isn't even worth worrying about, and in those where it is worth worrying about, you <em>want</em> PCs to be better.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lorehead, post: 2827428, member: 40086"] I don't see your point. If you add a merchant class, it would be reasonable to give it some niche protection. (The artificer is a good place to start, and I would much prefer giving merchants a bonus than taking away benefits that are both flavorful and balanced.) That wasn't the original suggestion, however. The stated purpose of this idea is to prevent PCs from being as good at a craft or profession as NPCs. A few years ago, I played in a game with two people whose characters wanted to open shops and practice a trade. One was a gnome who wanted to make magical toys for the kids, and one was a dwarf who wanted to be a blacksmith. The DM, for reasons which remain opaque to me, apparently felt that his job was to thwart these plans. The gnome learned that he couldn't run a shop on his own and that any help he found would only get in his way. The dwarf learned that he could only practice his trade by completing a test for his guild. Here's a compressed version: DM: "You must create a suit of masterwork plate mail." Much looking-up of rules. PC: "So, that's a DC 20? I take ten." DM: "You fail. You took too long to finish. You can try again in a year." PC: "But I spent [i]feats[/i] on this!" "Fix" implies that something is broken. NPCs do not need niche protection. A dwarf fighter who can also create non-magical, masterwork armor is not overpowered. If you want your NPC experts to be better at running a business than the PCs, give them more levels or have them invest feats. This actively discourages players from taking less powerful, more flavorful skills and feats. It also rules out the common scenario of the retired adventurer who runs a business. 3.0 Skill Focus didn't do that. ([i]PH 3.0[/i] 85) Yes. My point exactly. I was thinking of this comment: "I have to say in defense of 'what does the Expert do during an adventure when he's not crafting or appraising or professioning?' that it's odd that a fighter learns how to smith when he's out in the the middle of a dungeon - and he can match the balcksmith who is staying at home smithing all day long, year after year." This rule is much better than the first attempt, lost in the crash. I think this is a terrible idea. It adds no options, but removes many interesting and balanced ones. I strongly advise you not to cripple the ability of adventurers to learn these skills. If you still think, at this point, that I only believe this because it's "something a little radical," I've completely failed to express my concerns. The [i]DMG II[/i] has a good system for running businesses and guilds. You might try making stay-at-home blacksmiths better-connected, more influential within their guilds, or better with a broad range of business skills, but not necessarily better at making weapons. Even so, with the investment of a few feats, they'll be better at that, too. Then your definition of "20th level blacksmith" is too narrow. You don't even solve the supposed problem: you just force fighters to play an exp 1/ftr 19 and give up even more combat ability. I see no reason to house rule that a fighter [i]can't[/i] learn how to forge a masterwork longsword. You could even use that as a character hook: he's constantly experimenting with new weapons and techniques, and testing out his creations, in order to improve his blacksmithing. At present, you could even make the local blacksmith a retired adventurer or a rogue by night. Under your rules, he must either be an expert or incompetent. I doubt that many players will share your objection to the idea of a PC adventurer outshining a NPC. In most campaigns, whether a PC is as good at making non-magical items as a NPC isn't even worth worrying about, and in those where it is worth worrying about, you [i]want[/i] PCs to be better. [/QUOTE]
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