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Failing saves is...ok?
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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 7197052" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>5e is designed in such a way that most characters are going to have not only bad saves, but usually at least one 'critical' save that they will lack proficiency in. I've seen this described thusly; "you are not expected to make all your saves, and that's okay". It's true that there don't seem to be (m)any 'save or die' effects in the game.</p><p></p><p>But is it really ok?</p><p></p><p>There's still a lot of terrifying effects out there that can totally get your character killed, all because you got a low roll on a d20. Reducing maximum hit points, the poisoned condition, paralysis, instantly being reduced to 0 hit points- and of course, spells that can temporarily banish you from existence, or disintegrate you outright.</p><p></p><p>I've heard DM's claim that it makes monsters challenging again, when they have a reasonable expectation of their powers working- but on the other hand, if you're at full hit points and have made no tactical blunders, is it fun to be unable to do anything because you rolled a 3 on a d20?</p><p></p><p>This speaks to the heart of the game, as saving throws in one form or another are simply a part of D&D. And I'm not suggesting the game would be better if you never fail saving throws. But with limited ways to actually prevent the nightmare scenario, which WILL come up for most characters, as you're probably not going to have good Dex, Con, and Wis saves (not to mention the occasional Int or Cha save of doom- Str seems ok to fail most of the time, at least). You can only take Resilient once, and only a few classes get extra saving throw proficiencies (or get massive boosts to non-proficient saves, like the Paladin).</p><p></p><p>It's true that a well-built party can mitigate this issue immensely- Bless, Resistance, Paladin auras, Bard inspiration, and the like. But I also keep hearing that 5e isn't meant to require optimization on that level (plus, it's been my experience that party op is rarely used beyond "hey who's playing the healer?").</p><p></p><p>It's also true that the wonky way saves are calculated (starting at 8+bonuses as opposed to 10+ like AC) does make failing critical saves less likely at low levels, but at higher levels of play, that won't save you. I've actually faced a creature with a save DC of 20 in Storm King's Thunder, something a character with an 9 or less in an ability score can't save against (as even a natural 20 will not save you in 5e). That's...possibly an indictment against dumping ability scores in this addition, but it's still kind of insane to see happen in actual play, and not some theory-op exercise.</p><p></p><p>Again, at this point, it comes down to magic to save the day- no need to worry about failing a save against dragonfear after eating your daily required Heroes' Feast, but again, I find myself remembering a lot of people going on about how optimization shouldn't be necessary in 5e...</p><p></p><p>So how do you feel about saving throws? Sacred cow that needs to be ground into hamburger? Implemented poorly? Just needs a tweak here and there to succeed? Or is everything working fine, nothing to see here?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 7197052, member: 6877472"] 5e is designed in such a way that most characters are going to have not only bad saves, but usually at least one 'critical' save that they will lack proficiency in. I've seen this described thusly; "you are not expected to make all your saves, and that's okay". It's true that there don't seem to be (m)any 'save or die' effects in the game. But is it really ok? There's still a lot of terrifying effects out there that can totally get your character killed, all because you got a low roll on a d20. Reducing maximum hit points, the poisoned condition, paralysis, instantly being reduced to 0 hit points- and of course, spells that can temporarily banish you from existence, or disintegrate you outright. I've heard DM's claim that it makes monsters challenging again, when they have a reasonable expectation of their powers working- but on the other hand, if you're at full hit points and have made no tactical blunders, is it fun to be unable to do anything because you rolled a 3 on a d20? This speaks to the heart of the game, as saving throws in one form or another are simply a part of D&D. And I'm not suggesting the game would be better if you never fail saving throws. But with limited ways to actually prevent the nightmare scenario, which WILL come up for most characters, as you're probably not going to have good Dex, Con, and Wis saves (not to mention the occasional Int or Cha save of doom- Str seems ok to fail most of the time, at least). You can only take Resilient once, and only a few classes get extra saving throw proficiencies (or get massive boosts to non-proficient saves, like the Paladin). It's true that a well-built party can mitigate this issue immensely- Bless, Resistance, Paladin auras, Bard inspiration, and the like. But I also keep hearing that 5e isn't meant to require optimization on that level (plus, it's been my experience that party op is rarely used beyond "hey who's playing the healer?"). It's also true that the wonky way saves are calculated (starting at 8+bonuses as opposed to 10+ like AC) does make failing critical saves less likely at low levels, but at higher levels of play, that won't save you. I've actually faced a creature with a save DC of 20 in Storm King's Thunder, something a character with an 9 or less in an ability score can't save against (as even a natural 20 will not save you in 5e). That's...possibly an indictment against dumping ability scores in this addition, but it's still kind of insane to see happen in actual play, and not some theory-op exercise. Again, at this point, it comes down to magic to save the day- no need to worry about failing a save against dragonfear after eating your daily required Heroes' Feast, but again, I find myself remembering a lot of people going on about how optimization shouldn't be necessary in 5e... So how do you feel about saving throws? Sacred cow that needs to be ground into hamburger? Implemented poorly? Just needs a tweak here and there to succeed? Or is everything working fine, nothing to see here? [/QUOTE]
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