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Failing saves is...ok?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7204706" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I don't think so. 5e keeps the swing between best & worst bonuses relatively narrow, enough so that it doesn't overwhelm the d20. OTOH, it scales hp/damage dramatically. I wasn't aware of the specific quote, but it fits what I've said about BA from the beginning. In simple race-to-0-hp combat, it really doesn't matter too much if your opponent has a slightly higher AC than you're calibrated for or your own is a little low (though that's not so hard to fix), it's hp/damage (and numbers) that really make the difference. A low level monsters isn't a non-threat because it can't hit you, but because, even if it does, it doesn't do much damage.</p><p></p><p>The relative lack of scaling of attack bonuses and AC doesn't render level meaningless, because attacks inflict hp damage, and both damage potential and max hps scale with level. </p><p></p><p>Meteor Swarm does plenty of damage, so, if you don't bring counterspell into it, it's a fine example. Almost any character might get lucky or unlucky and make (very unlikely if you're talking dumped DEX & no proficiency) or fail his save vs a Meteor Swarm, at least a PC's with only 19 DC, which is BA (barely) working, the d20 is not overwhelmed, but the 1st level character who rolls a 20 on his save is still going to sublimate in the wrath of the spell's 40d6 damage, while the 20th level character who fails his (even if he also fails on a 19), just might be able to take the average 140 damage, a fellow wizard would need a decent CON to avoid being instantly killed by that much damage, while a high-CON fighter or barbarian at full hps might still be standing. </p><p></p><p>Abysmal saves, like the more theoretical abysmal AC, can work, as long as scaling still comes into it, somewhere - and, in 5e, the one thing that scales for all characters is hps.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> There's no need to always use such high DCs, but it wouldn't be any more in keeping with bounded accuracy to never use them, either.</p><p></p><p> That wouldn't actually make it less of an issue, nor give me any less reason to mod it. </p><p></p><p> It's a spell, one of many. Casters do have the flexibility to pull some kind of solution out of their sleeve for almost any problem, be it narrative or meta-game. That's an entirely different issue... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p> Both 2e AD&D and 3e had 'unbounded' accuracy, specifically in literal 'accuracy,' THAC0/BAB. (3e went particularly far beyond the pale with skill checks, which could have bonuses far in excess of 20, and even over 100.) 1e's matrixes were a little more nuanced, with strings of natural 20s before needing natural 20 + bonus to hit very low negative ACs keeping the d20 relevant longer, but, only on the extreme of needing a 20. The classic game idiom of low-level monsters becoming 'useless' was something 5e was specifically trying to get away from with BA, and prettymuch did, on the AC/attack side. Lower-level monsters can hit the PC in full plate, but if he's high level, they just won't do much damage relative to his massive hps. </p><p></p><p> It would be foolish not to account for increasing offensive bonuses and save DCs, since they're damn near automatic (a player would have to willfully avoid ASIs to his attack stat and choose to use non-proficient weapons to avoid any sort of scaling to attack - one using spells/cantrips literally couldn't avoid scaling, because the proficiency is automatic). Short of such willful sub-optimization, attack bonuses and save DCs are going to scale about as fast as BA allows. Similarly, AC is not that hard for any class to get, even those that get no armor at all usually have some alternate AC boost, even if it uses a spell slot.</p><p></p><p> The treadmill and BA both addressed the issue of the d20 being overwhelmed. There's a bit of a treadmill in 5e (everyone does get the same proficiency bonus), just with such small numbers it's not as critical you stay on it. The more significant scaling, per the above, is in hps/damage rather than DCs/bonuses. </p><p></p><p>But that breaks down where only DC/bonuses matter. With skills, that's less of an issue, since experts can usually use skills while amateurs 'help' them, or character can simply gravitate to the skill they're good at. Since saves are not so proactive (indeed, they can be quite flexible/proactive on the side of the attacker forcing the save), it's more of a problem. Having /six/ separate saves exacerbates it. </p><p></p><p>BA is kinda-sorta-new in that every prior edition has overwhelmed the d20 (or whatever die they were using) with level scaling, and most* have done so with experts vs amateurs (sometimes regardless of level, in the form of 'trained' only or exclusive 'special ability' percentages or the like). 5e's the first to try to avoid the issue in both cases. In doing so, it's made high-level non-experts as incompetent as low-level non-experts, which makes sense with things like tool proficiency and other non-adventuring skills that you're not just going to 'pick up' in the constant struggle for survival that give everyone more hps and higher proficiency bonuses as they level up, but doesn't make much sense for, for instance, AC (why don't PCs get better at dodging by adding proficiency to AC), at least not as obvious sense (because they get bunches of hps as they level, that broadly represents 'dodging' among many other not-getting-killed factors). Since saves are little more, mechanically, than inverted attack rolls, they have a similar issue, it does make sense that you'd get better at resisting magic and avoiding poison and other dangers that are arbitrarily resolved by saves rather than attacks, but that could also all be rolled into hps - iff all failed saves resulted in hp damage or a max-hp or current-hp 'test' like that of the Sleep spell. Since that's not the case, it makes sense for saves to scale - but only a minority of them do, and that's what I don't care for. </p><p></p><p>I often contrast it with saves getting genuinely better in 1e, but the solutions we occasionally briefly touch upon between attempts to deny the issue or affix blame to the hypothetical DM experiencing it, are closer to treadmill-'better' (that is, at best, keeping pace with rising DCs, and getting 'better' only relative to revisiting past challenges - something that, under BA, can happen quite a bit).</p><p></p><p>I'd be open to a 'really better' solution, if a balanced one could be found. The equivalent of 1e advancement, scaled down to BA, might, for instance, be accomplished by removing proficiency from save DC calculations, and adding proficiency scaling (+4 over 20 levels), if not full proficiency, to all saves, across the board.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>* three guesses.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7204706, member: 996"] I don't think so. 5e keeps the swing between best & worst bonuses relatively narrow, enough so that it doesn't overwhelm the d20. OTOH, it scales hp/damage dramatically. I wasn't aware of the specific quote, but it fits what I've said about BA from the beginning. In simple race-to-0-hp combat, it really doesn't matter too much if your opponent has a slightly higher AC than you're calibrated for or your own is a little low (though that's not so hard to fix), it's hp/damage (and numbers) that really make the difference. A low level monsters isn't a non-threat because it can't hit you, but because, even if it does, it doesn't do much damage. The relative lack of scaling of attack bonuses and AC doesn't render level meaningless, because attacks inflict hp damage, and both damage potential and max hps scale with level. Meteor Swarm does plenty of damage, so, if you don't bring counterspell into it, it's a fine example. Almost any character might get lucky or unlucky and make (very unlikely if you're talking dumped DEX & no proficiency) or fail his save vs a Meteor Swarm, at least a PC's with only 19 DC, which is BA (barely) working, the d20 is not overwhelmed, but the 1st level character who rolls a 20 on his save is still going to sublimate in the wrath of the spell's 40d6 damage, while the 20th level character who fails his (even if he also fails on a 19), just might be able to take the average 140 damage, a fellow wizard would need a decent CON to avoid being instantly killed by that much damage, while a high-CON fighter or barbarian at full hps might still be standing. Abysmal saves, like the more theoretical abysmal AC, can work, as long as scaling still comes into it, somewhere - and, in 5e, the one thing that scales for all characters is hps. There's no need to always use such high DCs, but it wouldn't be any more in keeping with bounded accuracy to never use them, either. That wouldn't actually make it less of an issue, nor give me any less reason to mod it. It's a spell, one of many. Casters do have the flexibility to pull some kind of solution out of their sleeve for almost any problem, be it narrative or meta-game. That's an entirely different issue... ;) Both 2e AD&D and 3e had 'unbounded' accuracy, specifically in literal 'accuracy,' THAC0/BAB. (3e went particularly far beyond the pale with skill checks, which could have bonuses far in excess of 20, and even over 100.) 1e's matrixes were a little more nuanced, with strings of natural 20s before needing natural 20 + bonus to hit very low negative ACs keeping the d20 relevant longer, but, only on the extreme of needing a 20. The classic game idiom of low-level monsters becoming 'useless' was something 5e was specifically trying to get away from with BA, and prettymuch did, on the AC/attack side. Lower-level monsters can hit the PC in full plate, but if he's high level, they just won't do much damage relative to his massive hps. It would be foolish not to account for increasing offensive bonuses and save DCs, since they're damn near automatic (a player would have to willfully avoid ASIs to his attack stat and choose to use non-proficient weapons to avoid any sort of scaling to attack - one using spells/cantrips literally couldn't avoid scaling, because the proficiency is automatic). Short of such willful sub-optimization, attack bonuses and save DCs are going to scale about as fast as BA allows. Similarly, AC is not that hard for any class to get, even those that get no armor at all usually have some alternate AC boost, even if it uses a spell slot. The treadmill and BA both addressed the issue of the d20 being overwhelmed. There's a bit of a treadmill in 5e (everyone does get the same proficiency bonus), just with such small numbers it's not as critical you stay on it. The more significant scaling, per the above, is in hps/damage rather than DCs/bonuses. But that breaks down where only DC/bonuses matter. With skills, that's less of an issue, since experts can usually use skills while amateurs 'help' them, or character can simply gravitate to the skill they're good at. Since saves are not so proactive (indeed, they can be quite flexible/proactive on the side of the attacker forcing the save), it's more of a problem. Having /six/ separate saves exacerbates it. BA is kinda-sorta-new in that every prior edition has overwhelmed the d20 (or whatever die they were using) with level scaling, and most* have done so with experts vs amateurs (sometimes regardless of level, in the form of 'trained' only or exclusive 'special ability' percentages or the like). 5e's the first to try to avoid the issue in both cases. In doing so, it's made high-level non-experts as incompetent as low-level non-experts, which makes sense with things like tool proficiency and other non-adventuring skills that you're not just going to 'pick up' in the constant struggle for survival that give everyone more hps and higher proficiency bonuses as they level up, but doesn't make much sense for, for instance, AC (why don't PCs get better at dodging by adding proficiency to AC), at least not as obvious sense (because they get bunches of hps as they level, that broadly represents 'dodging' among many other not-getting-killed factors). Since saves are little more, mechanically, than inverted attack rolls, they have a similar issue, it does make sense that you'd get better at resisting magic and avoiding poison and other dangers that are arbitrarily resolved by saves rather than attacks, but that could also all be rolled into hps - iff all failed saves resulted in hp damage or a max-hp or current-hp 'test' like that of the Sleep spell. Since that's not the case, it makes sense for saves to scale - but only a minority of them do, and that's what I don't care for. I often contrast it with saves getting genuinely better in 1e, but the solutions we occasionally briefly touch upon between attempts to deny the issue or affix blame to the hypothetical DM experiencing it, are closer to treadmill-'better' (that is, at best, keeping pace with rising DCs, and getting 'better' only relative to revisiting past challenges - something that, under BA, can happen quite a bit). I'd be open to a 'really better' solution, if a balanced one could be found. The equivalent of 1e advancement, scaled down to BA, might, for instance, be accomplished by removing proficiency from save DC calculations, and adding proficiency scaling (+4 over 20 levels), if not full proficiency, to all saves, across the board. * three guesses. [/QUOTE]
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