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Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two
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<blockquote data-quote="Malcolm" data-source="post: 825511" data-attributes="member: 11180"><p>Interesting discussion gentlemen. Your story line has worked well so far. Not to pick on anyone, just a couple of monkey wrenches though, and some observations:</p><p></p><p>1.) Your development sequence of magic(k) is fictional historically off a bit when used in the "No deific/outside interference" view that this originally started.</p><p> Development should go: </p><p> sub-a.) Adepts. </p><p> a.) Sorcerers/Druids emerge as the dualistic principle evolves and splits the arcane-theism reference of Adepts. </p><p> b.) Wizards replace Sorcerers (more control, cultural advancements in literature make reading open to the masses, easier to teach, etc.), and Clerics slowly supplant Druids (spells that usually are more functional for large cities and societies which you have as soon as your town structure goes over 1k pop)</p><p> c.) Sorcerers emerge again after X-amount of time with Wizards tinkering with magic, etc. and using themselves as targets for their own experimental spells. Druids re-emerge as Nature type Clerics who help to enrich nature, bring civilization back in touch with it (to fight pollution, disasters, etc) and to help Pioneers settle lands. </p><p> finally d.) Adepts re-emerge within the common populace as folks learn to understand that magic = magic = magic, and the dualistic principle is a stepping stone to higher forms of arcane-theism. </p><p> This is a gross Over Simplification; I've written a paper and hosted discussions on the nature of "magic as technology and its evolution" in other media. I can include a link on a side-thread if anyone is interested.</p><p></p><p>As for the concepts of War, etc. that have evolved:</p><p>1.) Lots of good strategies and discussion on the low-power stuff. Perhaps return the discussion to that level as you're going to find that high-power techno-magocracies tend to cycle out of hand. Magic = Technology = morale/population growth/fighting ability, etc. The side with the better technology, given No outside random factors, will usually win any war; and even with AoGs thrown in (Acts of God as the insurance companies call it), they will still usually win at a higher cost. While I've seen good discussion on fitting in armies/civs as per our real world, folks have just barely touched on this other than making large monsters.</p><p>The insertion of the Borg (i.e. Formians) was interesting, but should happen further down the road, otherwise you're going to end up with a war-torn world.</p><p>2.) Solution to the Formians = Ausel, being a magic heavy country, will do one of two things, both of which result in what my players and I have come to call "Magic Intelligent Nukes". These are not Epic level spells of destruction, doing X-Google-d6.</p><p> Nukes = Intelligent Summoned creatures that can Teleport.</p><p> What will happen is one of the two events (or variations of them) which no other magic wielding country can protect itself against save to blanket its domain with Anti-magic (and eventually develop non-magic tech). Either:</p><p> a.) Ausel Scrys on the Formian Queen and succeeds. Once they know her location they Summon any Outsider type from the Summon Monster 5+ listings that can teleport at will (tpwoE is most common), buff it, and send it to attack and kill the Queen. In the meantime they send others inside to distract the Hive. If they can't get her on the first shot, they repeat. The Hive has no blocks against this. Once the Queen dies, its over.</p><p> b.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails. Instead they equip X number of Rogues with Scrolls of Summon Monster 5+ (Use Magic Device saves lives!) and send them into the complex.</p><p> c.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails. They don't care! They use the mages which are the highest in level (didn't someone post that they are powerful enough to become dragons?) which in turn Summon 5+ that have Teleport without Error, buff them, give them a Rough description (spies, Divination, Commune, whatever it takes) who then go in and do the job. </p><p> note: This tactic basically is used once Casters in a world have access to Summon 5+ and/or Gate. "I Gate in a Solar of Zeus, and then I ask it to go destroy the infidels of city X which has attacked us!" These creatures don't have to focus on the armies of the bad guys, they can take out leaders, destroy industries, ruin crops on massive levels, or yeah, annihilate armies. </p><p> Example: In one of my home campaigns we just had a fleet of 30 warships sunk by one 17th level Wizard. He used Summons to bring in enough Water elementals by himself that he (the most powerful mage in this low-magic/power world) destroyed the whole fleet within rounds and still had time to drown the sailors! </p><p> What stops Magic Nukes? The same as in the real world: mutual agreement pacts and treaties. We both know we could "Gate" the world to pieces, but do we want to? Is it worth the risks? Plus if only a select few hold the power there is the "7th Bullet" paradox: If SummonerA just hit our cities, is he weak enough for SummonerB to kill or not; does he have more spells or power? </p><p> Eventually although one of the cultures will expand beyond its environmental niche and one of two things must occur: a.) Transport Tech becomes supreme and they leave the continent/world/universe they are in (Gates, T-port, etc) or b.) Weaponry Tech becomes supreme and they use it in a risk-weighed attack on their opponents (this usually only occurs with no social collapse in cultures that are bonded in a form of government with no dissent on any level, or dissent so minor that all in power agree on the changes needed). </p><p></p><p>Sorry, would have spoken up sooner but just found this thread.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Malcolm, post: 825511, member: 11180"] Interesting discussion gentlemen. Your story line has worked well so far. Not to pick on anyone, just a couple of monkey wrenches though, and some observations: 1.) Your development sequence of magic(k) is fictional historically off a bit when used in the "No deific/outside interference" view that this originally started. Development should go: sub-a.) Adepts. a.) Sorcerers/Druids emerge as the dualistic principle evolves and splits the arcane-theism reference of Adepts. b.) Wizards replace Sorcerers (more control, cultural advancements in literature make reading open to the masses, easier to teach, etc.), and Clerics slowly supplant Druids (spells that usually are more functional for large cities and societies which you have as soon as your town structure goes over 1k pop) c.) Sorcerers emerge again after X-amount of time with Wizards tinkering with magic, etc. and using themselves as targets for their own experimental spells. Druids re-emerge as Nature type Clerics who help to enrich nature, bring civilization back in touch with it (to fight pollution, disasters, etc) and to help Pioneers settle lands. finally d.) Adepts re-emerge within the common populace as folks learn to understand that magic = magic = magic, and the dualistic principle is a stepping stone to higher forms of arcane-theism. This is a gross Over Simplification; I've written a paper and hosted discussions on the nature of "magic as technology and its evolution" in other media. I can include a link on a side-thread if anyone is interested. As for the concepts of War, etc. that have evolved: 1.) Lots of good strategies and discussion on the low-power stuff. Perhaps return the discussion to that level as you're going to find that high-power techno-magocracies tend to cycle out of hand. Magic = Technology = morale/population growth/fighting ability, etc. The side with the better technology, given No outside random factors, will usually win any war; and even with AoGs thrown in (Acts of God as the insurance companies call it), they will still usually win at a higher cost. While I've seen good discussion on fitting in armies/civs as per our real world, folks have just barely touched on this other than making large monsters. The insertion of the Borg (i.e. Formians) was interesting, but should happen further down the road, otherwise you're going to end up with a war-torn world. 2.) Solution to the Formians = Ausel, being a magic heavy country, will do one of two things, both of which result in what my players and I have come to call "Magic Intelligent Nukes". These are not Epic level spells of destruction, doing X-Google-d6. Nukes = Intelligent Summoned creatures that can Teleport. What will happen is one of the two events (or variations of them) which no other magic wielding country can protect itself against save to blanket its domain with Anti-magic (and eventually develop non-magic tech). Either: a.) Ausel Scrys on the Formian Queen and succeeds. Once they know her location they Summon any Outsider type from the Summon Monster 5+ listings that can teleport at will (tpwoE is most common), buff it, and send it to attack and kill the Queen. In the meantime they send others inside to distract the Hive. If they can't get her on the first shot, they repeat. The Hive has no blocks against this. Once the Queen dies, its over. b.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails. Instead they equip X number of Rogues with Scrolls of Summon Monster 5+ (Use Magic Device saves lives!) and send them into the complex. c.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails. They don't care! They use the mages which are the highest in level (didn't someone post that they are powerful enough to become dragons?) which in turn Summon 5+ that have Teleport without Error, buff them, give them a Rough description (spies, Divination, Commune, whatever it takes) who then go in and do the job. note: This tactic basically is used once Casters in a world have access to Summon 5+ and/or Gate. "I Gate in a Solar of Zeus, and then I ask it to go destroy the infidels of city X which has attacked us!" These creatures don't have to focus on the armies of the bad guys, they can take out leaders, destroy industries, ruin crops on massive levels, or yeah, annihilate armies. Example: In one of my home campaigns we just had a fleet of 30 warships sunk by one 17th level Wizard. He used Summons to bring in enough Water elementals by himself that he (the most powerful mage in this low-magic/power world) destroyed the whole fleet within rounds and still had time to drown the sailors! What stops Magic Nukes? The same as in the real world: mutual agreement pacts and treaties. We both know we could "Gate" the world to pieces, but do we want to? Is it worth the risks? Plus if only a select few hold the power there is the "7th Bullet" paradox: If SummonerA just hit our cities, is he weak enough for SummonerB to kill or not; does he have more spells or power? Eventually although one of the cultures will expand beyond its environmental niche and one of two things must occur: a.) Transport Tech becomes supreme and they leave the continent/world/universe they are in (Gates, T-port, etc) or b.) Weaponry Tech becomes supreme and they use it in a risk-weighed attack on their opponents (this usually only occurs with no social collapse in cultures that are bonded in a form of government with no dissent on any level, or dissent so minor that all in power agree on the changes needed). Sorry, would have spoken up sooner but just found this thread. [/QUOTE]
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