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#Feminism Is A Collection of 34 "Nanogames" From Designers Around The World
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7715226" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>In part, to keep it that way, I've had to resist any impulse to actually discuss the games in detail. There is this sort of irony that I'm fairly sure the politics here is something most people in the thread are in closer agreement on than the games itself, which are an expression of politics. I mean, I don't even think some of the more trollish posters (who are obvious trolls) are actually motivated by a belief that women are inferior. I think that there is going to be a general agreement that women and men should be equal before the law and are of equivalent worth and value. </p><p></p><p>It's the details, and particular, how our culture and government and other large social groups should respond to that that drives us apart and into sometimes heated disagreement.</p><p></p><p>Part of the reason that I've been able to resist the impulse, is that because I've no intention of reading the document, and part of that is because I considered 77IM's attempt to put a positive spin on the document after having done so, so entirely damning that I didn't really need to. While his additional information did show that some of the games that weren't provocative really weren't provocative, the additional information about the games that provoked my negative reaction only confirmed further that my negative reaction had been warranted. So, I have a totally different take away: "Thanks, 77IM, you largely proved my point."</p><p></p><p>(Much of the criticism of people reviewing the document without reading it strikes me as so much like the criticism that 4e critics faced before 4e was released. Let's not go there, except to say that I find both comments about 'you have to read it first' totally disingenuous.)</p><p></p><p>If you find my comment that 77IM helped prove my point odd and just wrong, which I suspect that you do, just step back a moment and inspect your own rationalizing attempt at justifying the document, which was this: "There was a comment earlier (I forget from who, so apologies) that this product seems to be intended more for educators and activists, maybe some therapists too, which strikes me as probably very true."</p><p></p><p>So, as 77IM documented, this includes a game which is by his admission is just the rules for 'Spin the Bottle' with some added religious ritual thrown in. Do you consider that to be a game which is, "this product seems to be intended more for educators and activists, maybe some therapists too, which strikes me as probably very true."? </p><p></p><p>I think that there are far easier explanations available, but you are throwing them out in favor of one that shows the product in the most favorable light. And regardless, when you tell me that 'Spin the Bottle' is a game intended for educators and activists with a straight face, I hope you forgive that I can't hold back a hearty belly laugh. And that's to leave aside how weak the justification really is. (And now I may have killed the thread, because here I am discussing the games.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know that it is a loophole, and it doesn't always work, but the mods have generally been more tolerant about discussing issues actually raised by games if doing so wasn't deliberate trolling. However, this treads on the 'don't discuss the moderators rule'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is certainly room for great sermonizing. I could list a lot of great speakers that give excellent sermons. Even though I disagree with him about just about everything, Carl Sagan mastered the art of giving a sermon probably better than any other widely recognized 20th century speaker. All that time listening to sermons of more traditional religions might have made little impression on his beliefs, but they certainly informed his speaking style. But generally speaking, sermons are mostly effective only to the receptive. I get a great chuckle out of Saganists that say things like, "If only the religious would hear this, then...", and apparently don't get any of the irony. I assure you that I listened and thought about it. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I wasn't even thinking of Ender's saga when I wrote that. Try most of the later works of the Alvin Maker or Homecoming series if you want to get a sermon.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7715226, member: 4937"] In part, to keep it that way, I've had to resist any impulse to actually discuss the games in detail. There is this sort of irony that I'm fairly sure the politics here is something most people in the thread are in closer agreement on than the games itself, which are an expression of politics. I mean, I don't even think some of the more trollish posters (who are obvious trolls) are actually motivated by a belief that women are inferior. I think that there is going to be a general agreement that women and men should be equal before the law and are of equivalent worth and value. It's the details, and particular, how our culture and government and other large social groups should respond to that that drives us apart and into sometimes heated disagreement. Part of the reason that I've been able to resist the impulse, is that because I've no intention of reading the document, and part of that is because I considered 77IM's attempt to put a positive spin on the document after having done so, so entirely damning that I didn't really need to. While his additional information did show that some of the games that weren't provocative really weren't provocative, the additional information about the games that provoked my negative reaction only confirmed further that my negative reaction had been warranted. So, I have a totally different take away: "Thanks, 77IM, you largely proved my point." (Much of the criticism of people reviewing the document without reading it strikes me as so much like the criticism that 4e critics faced before 4e was released. Let's not go there, except to say that I find both comments about 'you have to read it first' totally disingenuous.) If you find my comment that 77IM helped prove my point odd and just wrong, which I suspect that you do, just step back a moment and inspect your own rationalizing attempt at justifying the document, which was this: "There was a comment earlier (I forget from who, so apologies) that this product seems to be intended more for educators and activists, maybe some therapists too, which strikes me as probably very true." So, as 77IM documented, this includes a game which is by his admission is just the rules for 'Spin the Bottle' with some added religious ritual thrown in. Do you consider that to be a game which is, "this product seems to be intended more for educators and activists, maybe some therapists too, which strikes me as probably very true."? I think that there are far easier explanations available, but you are throwing them out in favor of one that shows the product in the most favorable light. And regardless, when you tell me that 'Spin the Bottle' is a game intended for educators and activists with a straight face, I hope you forgive that I can't hold back a hearty belly laugh. And that's to leave aside how weak the justification really is. (And now I may have killed the thread, because here I am discussing the games.) I don't know that it is a loophole, and it doesn't always work, but the mods have generally been more tolerant about discussing issues actually raised by games if doing so wasn't deliberate trolling. However, this treads on the 'don't discuss the moderators rule'. There is certainly room for great sermonizing. I could list a lot of great speakers that give excellent sermons. Even though I disagree with him about just about everything, Carl Sagan mastered the art of giving a sermon probably better than any other widely recognized 20th century speaker. All that time listening to sermons of more traditional religions might have made little impression on his beliefs, but they certainly informed his speaking style. But generally speaking, sermons are mostly effective only to the receptive. I get a great chuckle out of Saganists that say things like, "If only the religious would hear this, then...", and apparently don't get any of the irony. I assure you that I listened and thought about it. I wasn't even thinking of Ender's saga when I wrote that. Try most of the later works of the Alvin Maker or Homecoming series if you want to get a sermon. [/QUOTE]
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