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<blockquote data-quote="Cleon" data-source="post: 8622152" data-attributes="member: 57383"><p>So they're wasting time spamming Perception checks every round? Yeah, that's a common problem.</p><p></p><p>Search is an Action remember. A PC can't take an Attack Action against the spinescales if they've spent their action that round looking for them. That might discourage that behaviour!</p><p></p><p>Although to be honest I find the Stealth vs Perception mechanics a bit messed up. All skill comparison which involves one or more creature rolling against multiple creatures and fails if any of the skill contests fail is bound to have a low chance of success just from the way statistics work.</p><p></p><p>Besides, I'm not fond of the uniform result of the current passive Perception rules. I'd prefer it to be more random so even in an ambush versus passive Perception it's less deterministic than "everyone with a passive Perception of X or higher notices the enemy and can react".</p><p></p><p>I'd rather there be some kind of individual "Passive Perception Save" so a less Perception PC has at least some chance of noticing an ambush that a more alert PC fails to spot.</p><p></p><p>Maybe give the party a "Group Perception DC" based on its members passive Perception, numbers and Stealth (since a noisy party will give itself away and the clumsy PCs will hinder their comrades' sense).</p><p></p><p>Then the enemy creatures make one Stealth check against the Group Perception and, if successful, it achieves surprise. If it fails then <strong><em>some</em></strong> of the PCs notice the attack.</p><p></p><p>Maybe something like this:</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The ambushers roll Stealth vs Group Perception DC.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If successful => entire group is surprised by ambush.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If failed => ambush fails partially or completely. Determine degree of failure equal to the number by which the Group Perception exceeds the Stealth check. Each PC rolls, say, 1d10* plus their Perception as a "Passive Perception Save". Whoever rolls highest spots the ambush, as does everyone who rolls within the degree of failure of the highest roller.<br /> * or maybe 1d12, or best of 2d10 if they have advantage (or are searching for threats?), or something else - I'm just spitballing here.</li> </ol><p>For example, if the Group Perception DC is 19 and the ambushing monster(s) roll Stealth 17, that's 2 degrees of failure.</p><p></p><p>If there's six ambushed PCs and they roll 6, 12, 13, 13, 14, 15 on their "Passive Perception Saves" then the two 13s, the 14 and 15 don't suffer surprise (as they're the highest result or within 2 points of it) while the 6 and 12 are surprised.</p><p></p><p>Hmm, to elaborate this Houserule brainstorming I'd consider having a creatures Initiative modifier play a role too. After all, it's no use <em>noticing</em> a monster if your reflexes are too slow to do anything about it. Maybe instead of a "Passive Perception Save" it's a "Reaction to Surprise Save" using a modifier equal to the PC's Perception plus Initiative?</p><p></p><p>'course it gets more complicated if two or more groups are trying to ambush each other as it'd (presumably) involve Group Stealth vs Group Stealth and Group Perception vs Group Perception checks, but I feel the approach has potential.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cleon, post: 8622152, member: 57383"] So they're wasting time spamming Perception checks every round? Yeah, that's a common problem. Search is an Action remember. A PC can't take an Attack Action against the spinescales if they've spent their action that round looking for them. That might discourage that behaviour! Although to be honest I find the Stealth vs Perception mechanics a bit messed up. All skill comparison which involves one or more creature rolling against multiple creatures and fails if any of the skill contests fail is bound to have a low chance of success just from the way statistics work. Besides, I'm not fond of the uniform result of the current passive Perception rules. I'd prefer it to be more random so even in an ambush versus passive Perception it's less deterministic than "everyone with a passive Perception of X or higher notices the enemy and can react". I'd rather there be some kind of individual "Passive Perception Save" so a less Perception PC has at least some chance of noticing an ambush that a more alert PC fails to spot. Maybe give the party a "Group Perception DC" based on its members passive Perception, numbers and Stealth (since a noisy party will give itself away and the clumsy PCs will hinder their comrades' sense). Then the enemy creatures make one Stealth check against the Group Perception and, if successful, it achieves surprise. If it fails then [B][I]some[/I][/B] of the PCs notice the attack. Maybe something like this: [LIST=1] [*]The ambushers roll Stealth vs Group Perception DC. [*]If successful => entire group is surprised by ambush. [*]If failed => ambush fails partially or completely. Determine degree of failure equal to the number by which the Group Perception exceeds the Stealth check. Each PC rolls, say, 1d10* plus their Perception as a "Passive Perception Save". Whoever rolls highest spots the ambush, as does everyone who rolls within the degree of failure of the highest roller. * or maybe 1d12, or best of 2d10 if they have advantage (or are searching for threats?), or something else - I'm just spitballing here. [/LIST] For example, if the Group Perception DC is 19 and the ambushing monster(s) roll Stealth 17, that's 2 degrees of failure. If there's six ambushed PCs and they roll 6, 12, 13, 13, 14, 15 on their "Passive Perception Saves" then the two 13s, the 14 and 15 don't suffer surprise (as they're the highest result or within 2 points of it) while the 6 and 12 are surprised. Hmm, to elaborate this Houserule brainstorming I'd consider having a creatures Initiative modifier play a role too. After all, it's no use [I]noticing[/I] a monster if your reflexes are too slow to do anything about it. Maybe instead of a "Passive Perception Save" it's a "Reaction to Surprise Save" using a modifier equal to the PC's Perception plus Initiative? 'course it gets more complicated if two or more groups are trying to ambush each other as it'd (presumably) involve Group Stealth vs Group Stealth and Group Perception vs Group Perception checks, but I feel the approach has potential. [/QUOTE]
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