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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Find Familiar, the Alert feat, and the loss of the fly-by Owl.
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<blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 9222922" data-attributes="member: 23484"><p>For many builds over the past ten years, it has been useful in combat for martials to have a familiar. Playtest changes will alter that. Please help me think through how the changes will work for playing Rogues in 2024 (assuming things stay as we’ve seen them).</p><p></p><p>In 2014, Find Familiar (which a rogue could get through Arcane Trickster, Magic Initiate, or a wizard-dip) gave you a creature (a) with its own initiative count, (b) that could have flyby (if an Owl). It meant some finessing to get the two to interact RAW, and most DMs I’m sure fudged it, but it was possible. With what we’ve seen in the playtest, both these variables have changed.</p><p></p><p>The Druid-and-Paladin UA has a revised Find Familiar, with a template, giving the caster a choice between land (+2 AC)/air (fly speed)/water (swim speed), that scales with the spell-level used. But it now works on the player’s initiative, moving after the player, and doesn’t have flyby.</p><p></p><p>Assuming this is going to stay, let’s sort through some permutations of a Rogue using a familiar to get advantage on Sneak Attack. (For each time the Familiar Helps, it can also Dodge and not continue moving; that allows SA without Advantage, and leaves it vulnerable)</p><p></p><p>(1) ONE TURN, USE REACTION</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rogue Readies an action, to attack once the Familiar Helps</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">(Rogue also moves, uses Cunning Action, but can’t Hide).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Familiar moves and Helps</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rogue uses reaction to Sneak attack (with Advantage).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Familiar may continue moving, risking opportunity attack.</li> </ul><p>PLUS: All on player’s turn. MINUS: Uses reaction (uncanny dodge not available), Cunning action not available after attack (Rogue not hidden).</p><p></p><p>(2) TWO TURNS</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rogue Attacks without SA (or using an Ally or whatever). Bonus Action to Hide (Cunning Action).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Familiar moves and Helps.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Familiar may continue moving, risking opportunity attack.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monster goes (possibly attacking the Familiar).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>On the next turn</strong>, Rogue gets Sneak Attack (with Advantage), and may hide again afterwards</li> </ul><p>PLUS: Cunning Action available after attack, reaction available for uncanny Dodge. MINUS: Takes a turn to set up (battlefield changes), Familiar vulnerable.</p><p></p><p>(3) ONE TURN, ALERT FEAT</p><p>CAVEAT: Familiars working on the caster’s initiative: does this mean that the order can be swapped with the Alert feat (as presented in the Character-Origins UA)? The Familiar is an ally and always goes after the player. I think this is exactly what the feat is meant to do, and rewarding an Alert rogue makes sense, but it requires an investment (“feat tax”) – this will also help Beastmaster Rangers (and should).</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In turn 1, everyone rolls initiative, and the Alert Rogue switches order with their familiar </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">On its turn, the Familiar moves and Helps.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Familiar may continue moving, risking opportunity attack.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rogue moves and Attacks (with Advantage), and may hide again afterwards.</li> </ul><p>PLUS: All on Player’s turn, Cunning Action available after attack, reaction available for uncanny Dodge. MINUS: Feat tax.</p><p></p><p>(4) ONE TURN, USE MOVE AND BONUS ACTION</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Player uses Bonus action to use Steady Aim, does not move, and Attacks with advantage.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Familiar does its own thing (dodging, Helping another ally, whatever).</li> </ul><p>PLUS: All on player’s turn, Familiar safe, reaction available for uncanny Dodge. MINUS: Cunning action not available, Move not available (may add issues of cover, etc.).</p><p></p><p>All of these options require trade-offs, which perhaps is as it should be. Without risking a Familiar, you can get advantage if you give up your Move and Bonus Action, losing one of the most powerful Rogue abilities in Cunning Action. Easier perhaps for a ranged Rogue (=4). With a Familiar, you can Spend your Reaction and do it all in one turn, losing access to Uncanny Dodge (=1), or spread over two turns and keep your Reaction (=2). Or you can spend a feat to become Alert (=3).</p><p></p><p>Assuming the DM lets you switch places with your Familiar with the Alert feat, the feat becomes a great investment for any level-1 Rogue, and a Human Rogue (with an extra feat) is very viable – losing Darkvision for Alert becomes a reasonable trade.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kobold Stew, post: 9222922, member: 23484"] For many builds over the past ten years, it has been useful in combat for martials to have a familiar. Playtest changes will alter that. Please help me think through how the changes will work for playing Rogues in 2024 (assuming things stay as we’ve seen them). In 2014, Find Familiar (which a rogue could get through Arcane Trickster, Magic Initiate, or a wizard-dip) gave you a creature (a) with its own initiative count, (b) that could have flyby (if an Owl). It meant some finessing to get the two to interact RAW, and most DMs I’m sure fudged it, but it was possible. With what we’ve seen in the playtest, both these variables have changed. The Druid-and-Paladin UA has a revised Find Familiar, with a template, giving the caster a choice between land (+2 AC)/air (fly speed)/water (swim speed), that scales with the spell-level used. But it now works on the player’s initiative, moving after the player, and doesn’t have flyby. Assuming this is going to stay, let’s sort through some permutations of a Rogue using a familiar to get advantage on Sneak Attack. (For each time the Familiar Helps, it can also Dodge and not continue moving; that allows SA without Advantage, and leaves it vulnerable) (1) ONE TURN, USE REACTION [LIST] [*]Rogue Readies an action, to attack once the Familiar Helps [*](Rogue also moves, uses Cunning Action, but can’t Hide). [*]Familiar moves and Helps [*]Rogue uses reaction to Sneak attack (with Advantage). [*]Familiar may continue moving, risking opportunity attack. [/LIST] PLUS: All on player’s turn. MINUS: Uses reaction (uncanny dodge not available), Cunning action not available after attack (Rogue not hidden). (2) TWO TURNS [LIST] [*]Rogue Attacks without SA (or using an Ally or whatever). Bonus Action to Hide (Cunning Action). [*]Familiar moves and Helps. [*]Familiar may continue moving, risking opportunity attack. [*]Monster goes (possibly attacking the Familiar). [*][B]On the next turn[/B], Rogue gets Sneak Attack (with Advantage), and may hide again afterwards [/LIST] PLUS: Cunning Action available after attack, reaction available for uncanny Dodge. MINUS: Takes a turn to set up (battlefield changes), Familiar vulnerable. (3) ONE TURN, ALERT FEAT CAVEAT: Familiars working on the caster’s initiative: does this mean that the order can be swapped with the Alert feat (as presented in the Character-Origins UA)? The Familiar is an ally and always goes after the player. I think this is exactly what the feat is meant to do, and rewarding an Alert rogue makes sense, but it requires an investment (“feat tax”) – this will also help Beastmaster Rangers (and should). [LIST] [*]In turn 1, everyone rolls initiative, and the Alert Rogue switches order with their familiar [*]On its turn, the Familiar moves and Helps. [*]Familiar may continue moving, risking opportunity attack. [*]Rogue moves and Attacks (with Advantage), and may hide again afterwards. [/LIST] PLUS: All on Player’s turn, Cunning Action available after attack, reaction available for uncanny Dodge. MINUS: Feat tax. (4) ONE TURN, USE MOVE AND BONUS ACTION [LIST] [*]Player uses Bonus action to use Steady Aim, does not move, and Attacks with advantage. [*]Familiar does its own thing (dodging, Helping another ally, whatever). [/LIST] PLUS: All on player’s turn, Familiar safe, reaction available for uncanny Dodge. MINUS: Cunning action not available, Move not available (may add issues of cover, etc.). All of these options require trade-offs, which perhaps is as it should be. Without risking a Familiar, you can get advantage if you give up your Move and Bonus Action, losing one of the most powerful Rogue abilities in Cunning Action. Easier perhaps for a ranged Rogue (=4). With a Familiar, you can Spend your Reaction and do it all in one turn, losing access to Uncanny Dodge (=1), or spread over two turns and keep your Reaction (=2). Or you can spend a feat to become Alert (=3). Assuming the DM lets you switch places with your Familiar with the Alert feat, the feat becomes a great investment for any level-1 Rogue, and a Human Rogue (with an extra feat) is very viable – losing Darkvision for Alert becomes a reasonable trade. [/QUOTE]
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