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Fixing the 5e saves
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<blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 6375937" data-attributes="member: 1465"><p>I don't have any suggestions yet because I'm still thinking what needs to be fixed.</p><p></p><p>In 3e we had:</p><p></p><p>- DC = 10 + stat mod + spell level</p><p>- 'good' ST = d20 + stat mod + 2 + 1/2 class level</p><p>- 'bad' ST = d20 + stat mod + 1/3 class level</p><p></p><p>Ignoring the anomaly of stacking ST in multiclassing.</p><p>Spellcasters have an easier time focusing on increasing one single stat mod, while defenders in theory have 3 stat mods to care about.</p><p>We also had unbound stats, which favor the spellcasters even more.</p><p>Furthermore, the spellcaster can often choose which ST to target, while the defender cannot choose.</p><p></p><p>So base DC goes up to 19 + stat mod.</p><p>Base 'good' ST goes up to average 22.5 + stat mod.</p><p>Base 'bad' ST goes up to average 16.5 + stat mod.</p><p></p><p>Difference between base DC and 'good' base ST goes up to -3.5 (defender needs a roll of 7+)*</p><p>Difference between base DC and 'bad' base ST goes up to +2.5 (defender needs a roll of 13+)*</p><p>Difference between 'good' and 'bad' base ST goes up to 6.</p><p>*assuming equal stat mod, which is not usually true, so the defender typically needs higher rolls</p><p></p><p>These are the limits, at each level the differences are not the same.</p><p>Something to notice is that these limit DC are for 9th level spells, but lower level spells have much lower DC.</p><p></p><p>In 5e we have:</p><p></p><p>- DC = 8 + stat mod + prof bonus</p><p>- 'good' ST = d20 + stat mod + prof bonus</p><p>- 'bad' ST = d20 + stat mod</p><p></p><p>In this case the DC is the same for all spells, and prof bonus increases equally for the caster and the defender.</p><p></p><p>Difference between base DC and 'good' base ST is always -2 (defender needs a roll of 8+)*</p><p>Difference between base DC and 'bad' base ST goes up to +4 (defender needs a roll of 14+)*</p><p>Difference between 'good' and 'bad' base ST goes up to 6.</p><p></p><p>So it does look like 5e is more advantageous towards spellcasters, making it generally harder to save vs spells, especially because this is for ALL spells, not just the highest-level ones.</p><p></p><p>The only mitigating factor is that the spellcaster won't normally enjoy a stat higher than 20, so the gap with the ST stat is not going to be as much as in 3e. This is hard to evaluate, but I think that having less than 10 in a stat is rare in 5e, so even when the spellcaster guesses right and targets the weakest save, she will have a further +5 bonus at best. I think this was often significantly higher in 3e.</p><p></p><p>Basically it's not that different between 3e and 5e, <em>if you consider high level spells</em>, but it is quite a lot different with regard to low-level spells cast by high-level spellcasters, because their spell DC is the same.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Li Shenron, post: 6375937, member: 1465"] I don't have any suggestions yet because I'm still thinking what needs to be fixed. In 3e we had: - DC = 10 + stat mod + spell level - 'good' ST = d20 + stat mod + 2 + 1/2 class level - 'bad' ST = d20 + stat mod + 1/3 class level Ignoring the anomaly of stacking ST in multiclassing. Spellcasters have an easier time focusing on increasing one single stat mod, while defenders in theory have 3 stat mods to care about. We also had unbound stats, which favor the spellcasters even more. Furthermore, the spellcaster can often choose which ST to target, while the defender cannot choose. So base DC goes up to 19 + stat mod. Base 'good' ST goes up to average 22.5 + stat mod. Base 'bad' ST goes up to average 16.5 + stat mod. Difference between base DC and 'good' base ST goes up to -3.5 (defender needs a roll of 7+)* Difference between base DC and 'bad' base ST goes up to +2.5 (defender needs a roll of 13+)* Difference between 'good' and 'bad' base ST goes up to 6. *assuming equal stat mod, which is not usually true, so the defender typically needs higher rolls These are the limits, at each level the differences are not the same. Something to notice is that these limit DC are for 9th level spells, but lower level spells have much lower DC. In 5e we have: - DC = 8 + stat mod + prof bonus - 'good' ST = d20 + stat mod + prof bonus - 'bad' ST = d20 + stat mod In this case the DC is the same for all spells, and prof bonus increases equally for the caster and the defender. Difference between base DC and 'good' base ST is always -2 (defender needs a roll of 8+)* Difference between base DC and 'bad' base ST goes up to +4 (defender needs a roll of 14+)* Difference between 'good' and 'bad' base ST goes up to 6. So it does look like 5e is more advantageous towards spellcasters, making it generally harder to save vs spells, especially because this is for ALL spells, not just the highest-level ones. The only mitigating factor is that the spellcaster won't normally enjoy a stat higher than 20, so the gap with the ST stat is not going to be as much as in 3e. This is hard to evaluate, but I think that having less than 10 in a stat is rare in 5e, so even when the spellcaster guesses right and targets the weakest save, she will have a further +5 bonus at best. I think this was often significantly higher in 3e. Basically it's not that different between 3e and 5e, [I]if you consider high level spells[/I], but it is quite a lot different with regard to low-level spells cast by high-level spellcasters, because their spell DC is the same. [/QUOTE]
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