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<blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 8167638" data-attributes="member: 6987520"><p>Fine, then they probably have Acrobatics and DEX. Either way, IME front-liners <em>usually</em> have one or the other. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, if someone is helping the other gain advantage, they aren't attacking, which reduces the damage the PC will likely take--it is a losing strategy unless the AC is super high. I'll give you another example:</p><p></p><p>[SPOILER]</p><p>Two orcs attack a PC with AC 16. They are flanking, so <em>one</em> of them gets a +1 bonus. The other, call it the <em>primary</em> , doesn't get the bonus because that is the one the PC is focused on. They don't <em>both</em> get +1, just one of them. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough before and if I caused confusion, I apologize.</p><p></p><p>Now, an orc is normally +5 to attack for 9 (crit 16) damage. Against AC 16, an orc hits on 11 or higher or 50/50. With advantage 75/25.</p><p>Orc A does 4.85 (0.45 x 9 + 0.05 x 16) damage per round. Orc B, with the +1 flanking bonus, does 5.3 (0.5 x 9 + 0.05 x 16). So, if both attack they do 10.15 damage per round.</p><p></p><p>But, if Orc A helps, he does no damage. And Orc B's, with advantage, does only 7.86 (0.7 x 9 + 0.0975 x 16) damage per round.</p><p></p><p>So, both orcs attacking yields higher damage than Orc A helping Orc B.[/SPOILER]</p><p></p><p>Now, it certainly, either way, isn't more powerful than flanking as normal, with both orcs attacking with advantage! If, by "normal", you mean both orcs attacking with no bonus (nor advantage for flanking), you would be wrong:</p><p></p><p>Each orc does 4.85 damage per round "normally", so 9.7 damage together. Orc A helping Orc B (who's attacking with advantage) is again only 7.86. So, this:</p><p></p><p></p><p>is not correct, regardless of what your meaning of "normal" is.</p><p></p><p>At any rate:</p><p></p><p>Which is entirely logical. You've removed one of the biggest advantages (pardon the pun) mooks, etc. can get in the game. You've also removed one of the PCs greatest tactics against solitary foes (such as that Dragon, which is the <em>other</em> part of the name of the game... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ).</p><p></p><p>Finally, you removed flanking completely. The OP wanted something other than advantage that flanking can do, which is what I presented. Using my method with helping is <em>not</em> more powerful than just using my method and each creature attacking. I've shown you that twice, now. But my method is not as powerful as RAW flanking with advantage. It is obviously stronger than "normal" (i.e. no bonus nor advantage) but weaker that RAW flanking.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DND_Reborn, post: 8167638, member: 6987520"] Fine, then they probably have Acrobatics and DEX. Either way, IME front-liners [I]usually[/I] have one or the other. :) Ok, if someone is helping the other gain advantage, they aren't attacking, which reduces the damage the PC will likely take--it is a losing strategy unless the AC is super high. I'll give you another example: [SPOILER] Two orcs attack a PC with AC 16. They are flanking, so [I]one[/I] of them gets a +1 bonus. The other, call it the [I]primary[/I] , doesn't get the bonus because that is the one the PC is focused on. They don't [I]both[/I] get +1, just one of them. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough before and if I caused confusion, I apologize. Now, an orc is normally +5 to attack for 9 (crit 16) damage. Against AC 16, an orc hits on 11 or higher or 50/50. With advantage 75/25. Orc A does 4.85 (0.45 x 9 + 0.05 x 16) damage per round. Orc B, with the +1 flanking bonus, does 5.3 (0.5 x 9 + 0.05 x 16). So, if both attack they do 10.15 damage per round. But, if Orc A helps, he does no damage. And Orc B's, with advantage, does only 7.86 (0.7 x 9 + 0.0975 x 16) damage per round. So, both orcs attacking yields higher damage than Orc A helping Orc B.[/SPOILER] Now, it certainly, either way, isn't more powerful than flanking as normal, with both orcs attacking with advantage! If, by "normal", you mean both orcs attacking with no bonus (nor advantage for flanking), you would be wrong: Each orc does 4.85 damage per round "normally", so 9.7 damage together. Orc A helping Orc B (who's attacking with advantage) is again only 7.86. So, this: is not correct, regardless of what your meaning of "normal" is. At any rate: Which is entirely logical. You've removed one of the biggest advantages (pardon the pun) mooks, etc. can get in the game. You've also removed one of the PCs greatest tactics against solitary foes (such as that Dragon, which is the [I]other[/I] part of the name of the game... ;) ). Finally, you removed flanking completely. The OP wanted something other than advantage that flanking can do, which is what I presented. Using my method with helping is [I]not[/I] more powerful than just using my method and each creature attacking. I've shown you that twice, now. But my method is not as powerful as RAW flanking with advantage. It is obviously stronger than "normal" (i.e. no bonus nor advantage) but weaker that RAW flanking. [/QUOTE]
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