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[Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6789787" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>I get what you're saying. But I still think it's off point. It's still focusing on the game and rules rather than the setting.</p><p></p><p>The D&D game standard (and in the cosmology of the Realms) is that things like murder, stealing, making people suffer, etc. is evil.</p><p></p><p>Note that people suffering is not evil in and of itself, and people suffering due to their own choices (like walking through fire or being stuck in the wall for being faithless) is not evil.</p><p></p><p>So yes, because simply being good in the Realms is not enough, people theoretically would have the same incentive to be evil as being good. And in a game, where people are 'optimized' and never have an incentive to pick or do something that isn't 'optimized' it presents a challenge for game design.</p><p></p><p>But that's not even really a failure of the game design as it is gamers. There are an endless number of threads asking for help on their 'character build' because they don't want to make a mistake and pick something that's not as good as something else. The problem is, that the people of the Realms are just like the people of our world. Real people don't 'optimize' themselves. They do what they want. Otherwise we'd all be the perfect weight, spend the day only doing things that make us the most money, and never purchase or do frivolous things.</p><p></p><p>As an example for my players I recommend that they look at what their average day or month looks like. How much time do they spend doing what they SHOULD do vs what they WANT to do. Not simply going to school or work, but being 100% present in that work. Finishing 100%, as quickly as possible, and then looking for more work and finishing more work. What do you spend your money on? Look around the house, are there decorative items? Furniture? Knickknacks, pictures, games, junk food, etc.?</p><p></p><p>What does the average PC spend their time doing? What do they spend their money on? Do they systematically get better, or do they find themselves looking back and say, 'Wow, what happened to the last 10 years? I expected to be 6th level by now.' When they get back to town do they pick up new furniture, buy a new horse, pick up a new tapestry for the dining hall, send the kids to a private tutor, etc? Do they even have a house? Usually the money is spent on buying new weapons, magic items and potions if possible, and a trip to the tavern. </p><p></p><p>When you find a treasure horde with jewelry, fine wines, rare silks from Kara-Tur, etc. are you excited or just want to know how much you can sell them for?</p><p></p><p>Being evil is just not in most people's nature. Sure, given the opportunity most of us will do some things that the D&D cosmology considers evil. But realistically, how many people actually follow that path? Not because we think we're going to go to hell, or get stuck in a Wall for eternity, but because it's just not what most of us are comfortable doing. Plus it's hard. Very hard. Society and religion alone promote being good, because that is good for all of us. Not to mention that for most of us, if torturing orphans would subject us to an eternity with Bane or Bhaal, we'd be terrified. For most people that would be worse than serving Kelemvor (which really doesn't sound that bad), and possibly worse than the Wall.</p><p></p><p>Most people don't live their life worried about what happens to them in the afterlife, other than a general overriding morality that derives from their religion. Most live their life focusing on what will happen today, tomorrow, and maybe next year. The more organized might think a little farther ahead. If every decision people made was based off of what happens in the afterlife, the world would be a different place.</p><p></p><p>Again, it's the difference between game and setting. A lot of people build and play a character based on the rules. I'm coming at it from the opposite direction - use the rules to support the story of the characters and the world they live in. </p><p></p><p>The rules say it's more beneficial to kill the groveling and surrendering goblin than to let it go. I'll gain more experience and possibly some treasure. But my moral center says that killing, other than in self-defense, is wrong.</p><p></p><p>The rules say that improving my Perception skill is better, but I like animals and grew up on a farm so I'm spending my expertise on Animal Handling and Medicine. Will it benefit me in the game? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't care, it's part of who I am as this given character.</p><p></p><p>As I said before, for mortals, alignment is a description. Like I am male, have brown hair, blue eyes. I also happen to be neutral good (which is where I think the majority of people fall). My being neutral good has no impact on my afterlife in the Forgotten Realms. I've said mean things, I've stolen things, I've killed small animals without cause. I've even killed the surrendering goblin. Those don't move me from neutral good, they are simply failures in my ability to live up to the standards I've set for myself and the things I believe in. </p><p></p><p>Alignment describes your moral center, and your intent. What you strive to be in a perfect world. It's not a perfect world.</p><p></p><p>D&D the game is designed for the players to be the heroes. That is, the ones fighting 'evil' whether it's an oppressive overlord, and orc horde, or an actually evil demon prince. Why? Well, partly because of our society. But mostly because it works better that way. If the players are all playing selfish, in-it-for-themselves, backstabbing murderers that will destroy all who don't follow them, the game falls apart.</p><p></p><p>Evil in archetypal fiction always views Good as a weakness. And Good always prevails through love, kindness, and working as a team. </p><p></p><p>Just because the Wall trumps the alignment system doesn't make it evil. Nor does the fact that the Realms afterlife is based on your faith and actions in your mortal life. It just is. And just like our world, people lean towards good, and heroic actions are good, villainous actions are evil. Good generally prevails simply because they work better together over a longer period of time. Short-term evil may survive, but the fate of evil isn't fun and games. They often live shorter lives, die more violent deaths, and live in strife for eternity in the domains of their Evil Gods. </p><p></p><p>Ilbranteloth</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 6789787, member: 6778044"] I get what you're saying. But I still think it's off point. It's still focusing on the game and rules rather than the setting. The D&D game standard (and in the cosmology of the Realms) is that things like murder, stealing, making people suffer, etc. is evil. Note that people suffering is not evil in and of itself, and people suffering due to their own choices (like walking through fire or being stuck in the wall for being faithless) is not evil. So yes, because simply being good in the Realms is not enough, people theoretically would have the same incentive to be evil as being good. And in a game, where people are 'optimized' and never have an incentive to pick or do something that isn't 'optimized' it presents a challenge for game design. But that's not even really a failure of the game design as it is gamers. There are an endless number of threads asking for help on their 'character build' because they don't want to make a mistake and pick something that's not as good as something else. The problem is, that the people of the Realms are just like the people of our world. Real people don't 'optimize' themselves. They do what they want. Otherwise we'd all be the perfect weight, spend the day only doing things that make us the most money, and never purchase or do frivolous things. As an example for my players I recommend that they look at what their average day or month looks like. How much time do they spend doing what they SHOULD do vs what they WANT to do. Not simply going to school or work, but being 100% present in that work. Finishing 100%, as quickly as possible, and then looking for more work and finishing more work. What do you spend your money on? Look around the house, are there decorative items? Furniture? Knickknacks, pictures, games, junk food, etc.? What does the average PC spend their time doing? What do they spend their money on? Do they systematically get better, or do they find themselves looking back and say, 'Wow, what happened to the last 10 years? I expected to be 6th level by now.' When they get back to town do they pick up new furniture, buy a new horse, pick up a new tapestry for the dining hall, send the kids to a private tutor, etc? Do they even have a house? Usually the money is spent on buying new weapons, magic items and potions if possible, and a trip to the tavern. When you find a treasure horde with jewelry, fine wines, rare silks from Kara-Tur, etc. are you excited or just want to know how much you can sell them for? Being evil is just not in most people's nature. Sure, given the opportunity most of us will do some things that the D&D cosmology considers evil. But realistically, how many people actually follow that path? Not because we think we're going to go to hell, or get stuck in a Wall for eternity, but because it's just not what most of us are comfortable doing. Plus it's hard. Very hard. Society and religion alone promote being good, because that is good for all of us. Not to mention that for most of us, if torturing orphans would subject us to an eternity with Bane or Bhaal, we'd be terrified. For most people that would be worse than serving Kelemvor (which really doesn't sound that bad), and possibly worse than the Wall. Most people don't live their life worried about what happens to them in the afterlife, other than a general overriding morality that derives from their religion. Most live their life focusing on what will happen today, tomorrow, and maybe next year. The more organized might think a little farther ahead. If every decision people made was based off of what happens in the afterlife, the world would be a different place. Again, it's the difference between game and setting. A lot of people build and play a character based on the rules. I'm coming at it from the opposite direction - use the rules to support the story of the characters and the world they live in. The rules say it's more beneficial to kill the groveling and surrendering goblin than to let it go. I'll gain more experience and possibly some treasure. But my moral center says that killing, other than in self-defense, is wrong. The rules say that improving my Perception skill is better, but I like animals and grew up on a farm so I'm spending my expertise on Animal Handling and Medicine. Will it benefit me in the game? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't care, it's part of who I am as this given character. As I said before, for mortals, alignment is a description. Like I am male, have brown hair, blue eyes. I also happen to be neutral good (which is where I think the majority of people fall). My being neutral good has no impact on my afterlife in the Forgotten Realms. I've said mean things, I've stolen things, I've killed small animals without cause. I've even killed the surrendering goblin. Those don't move me from neutral good, they are simply failures in my ability to live up to the standards I've set for myself and the things I believe in. Alignment describes your moral center, and your intent. What you strive to be in a perfect world. It's not a perfect world. D&D the game is designed for the players to be the heroes. That is, the ones fighting 'evil' whether it's an oppressive overlord, and orc horde, or an actually evil demon prince. Why? Well, partly because of our society. But mostly because it works better that way. If the players are all playing selfish, in-it-for-themselves, backstabbing murderers that will destroy all who don't follow them, the game falls apart. Evil in archetypal fiction always views Good as a weakness. And Good always prevails through love, kindness, and working as a team. Just because the Wall trumps the alignment system doesn't make it evil. Nor does the fact that the Realms afterlife is based on your faith and actions in your mortal life. It just is. And just like our world, people lean towards good, and heroic actions are good, villainous actions are evil. Good generally prevails simply because they work better together over a longer period of time. Short-term evil may survive, but the fate of evil isn't fun and games. They often live shorter lives, die more violent deaths, and live in strife for eternity in the domains of their Evil Gods. Ilbranteloth [/QUOTE]
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