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[Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6792350" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>You totally misunderstood my point. The line immediately following it was meant to clarify, but obviously didn't. A tornado causes suffering, but is not evil because it is a natural occurrence and cannot be avoided. I cannot make the tornado go away no matter how hard I try. I'm not saying it's not evil because that victim could or couldn't avoid it. </p><p></p><p>I'm saying that if the Gods are incapable of destroying the wall, if they don't have any way to do so, because the natural laws of the cosmology prevents it, then they can not be considered evil simply because it exists, any more than I can be considered evil because tornadoes exist. They cannot be held accountable for something they can't change.</p><p></p><p>Likewise you can't consider Leia evil because she didn't stop Vader from destroying Alderaan. She couldn't do anything about it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Belief was irrelevant for Zeus. But it's not irrelevant in the Realms. The power of the Gods is linked to their followers faith.</p><p></p><p>Here's how Wikipedia defines Diety: In religious belief, a deity (Listeni/ˈdiː.ɨti/ or Listeni/ˈdeɪ.ɨti/)[1] is either a natural or supernatural being, who is thought of as holy, divine, or sacred. Some religions have one supreme deity, while others have multiple deities of various ranks.</p><p></p><p>I think the Gods of the Realms fit that definition precisely, as does Zeus. In the Realms it goes a step further because their power is dependent upon the faith of their followers. In addition, they have the ability to grant divine power to their most faithful.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I'm not exactly clear on the benefit I gain if I do disallow it.</p><p></p><p>The benefit of allowing it is the same as anybody else who has it in their Realms campaign. It's a unique bit of lore that is tied specifically to the Realms. Once again, the fact that it exists in the religions and minds of the people of the Realms doesn't necessarily mean it actually exists. </p><p></p><p>And again I'm not forbidding it. I run games in the Forgotten Realms. I have no interest in running a game in Krynn. I'm not 'disallowing' or 'forbidding' a Dragonlance campaign. I'm just not picking up a book to run one myself. Who knows, when this campaign runs its course over the next couple of years, maybe I will. But I doubt it.</p><p></p><p>I have a number of stories in progress in my campaign. Those are the stories I'm writing. The fact that I'm not interested in spending what time I have writing a story that interests you doesn't mean I'm forbidding or disallowing it. I'm just not going there. Same end result perhaps, but telling me I am forbidding it implies an entirely different intent on my part, and I take offense to that. </p><p></p><p>I have no interest in taking my campaign into <em>any</em> extraplanar scenario.</p><p></p><p>I decide what I forbid or disallow. You nor anybody else get to decide what I forbid or not. I won't allow kender or gully dwarves. Giant Space Hamsters. In fact, the whole concept of Spelljammer. Those I forbid. They just don't exist in my Realms. Tried them, and at this stage in the game they are just out. I'm sure some player that loves kender will comment that I'm a racist as I've seen in threads elsewhere when their favorite race is disallowed. Whatever. It's a game. It's a fictional race, and in this case a fictional wall.</p><p></p><p>I'm still on the fence about dragonborn, at least in regards to the whole returned Abeir thing because I'm not sure if I'm including that either. Anything else, except for those things I expressly forbid, are simply things I'm not doing. I explained the likelihood of it ever happening was pretty much never, simply because I have a pretty good idea of what direction my campaign is heading, and an adventure to the Fugue Plain isn't part of what's planned. Perhaps if my interest was piqued enough I would. This thread, nor this discussion, has piqued my interest in running that type of campaign. Sorry.</p><p></p><p>The Wall exists, at least in the beliefs of the Realmsfolk of my Realms. If somebody writes a novel of somebody that destroys the Wall that fits within my Realms, then no problem, it becomes part of the campaign lore. If it's destroyed by gully dwarves, kender and a giant space hamster, then it probably won't make it into my campaign's lore. If it's part of a dragonborn and tiefling storyline, then I'm on the fence. It's probably more likely to make my campaign if Erin M Evans writes it, but on the other hand I'm really not a fan of the whole returned Abeir, nor the way dragonborn and tieflings are presented in the 5th edition. So who knows. I guess I don't have to worry about it until somebody writes the book.</p><p></p><p>I'm not here to try to convince you to run your campaign my way. You and others have asked how and why I and others approach the subject of the Wall in our Forgotten Realms campaign. I'm not sure why you continue to insist or imply that there is some problem with me not wanting to run a campaign specifically to destroy the wall. I've spent more time considering the wall in the last few days than in the last few decades. I love the discussion, I love threads that make me think. But it's not an interesting enough subject to me to do other than just think about it and discuss it. It's certainly helped me clarify how I think the Gods, their domains, the afterlife, and yes, even the wall works.</p><p> </p><p>Ilbranteloth</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 6792350, member: 6778044"] You totally misunderstood my point. The line immediately following it was meant to clarify, but obviously didn't. A tornado causes suffering, but is not evil because it is a natural occurrence and cannot be avoided. I cannot make the tornado go away no matter how hard I try. I'm not saying it's not evil because that victim could or couldn't avoid it. I'm saying that if the Gods are incapable of destroying the wall, if they don't have any way to do so, because the natural laws of the cosmology prevents it, then they can not be considered evil simply because it exists, any more than I can be considered evil because tornadoes exist. They cannot be held accountable for something they can't change. Likewise you can't consider Leia evil because she didn't stop Vader from destroying Alderaan. She couldn't do anything about it. Belief was irrelevant for Zeus. But it's not irrelevant in the Realms. The power of the Gods is linked to their followers faith. Here's how Wikipedia defines Diety: In religious belief, a deity (Listeni/ˈdiː.ɨti/ or Listeni/ˈdeɪ.ɨti/)[1] is either a natural or supernatural being, who is thought of as holy, divine, or sacred. Some religions have one supreme deity, while others have multiple deities of various ranks. I think the Gods of the Realms fit that definition precisely, as does Zeus. In the Realms it goes a step further because their power is dependent upon the faith of their followers. In addition, they have the ability to grant divine power to their most faithful. And I'm not exactly clear on the benefit I gain if I do disallow it. The benefit of allowing it is the same as anybody else who has it in their Realms campaign. It's a unique bit of lore that is tied specifically to the Realms. Once again, the fact that it exists in the religions and minds of the people of the Realms doesn't necessarily mean it actually exists. And again I'm not forbidding it. I run games in the Forgotten Realms. I have no interest in running a game in Krynn. I'm not 'disallowing' or 'forbidding' a Dragonlance campaign. I'm just not picking up a book to run one myself. Who knows, when this campaign runs its course over the next couple of years, maybe I will. But I doubt it. I have a number of stories in progress in my campaign. Those are the stories I'm writing. The fact that I'm not interested in spending what time I have writing a story that interests you doesn't mean I'm forbidding or disallowing it. I'm just not going there. Same end result perhaps, but telling me I am forbidding it implies an entirely different intent on my part, and I take offense to that. I have no interest in taking my campaign into [i]any[/i] extraplanar scenario. I decide what I forbid or disallow. You nor anybody else get to decide what I forbid or not. I won't allow kender or gully dwarves. Giant Space Hamsters. In fact, the whole concept of Spelljammer. Those I forbid. They just don't exist in my Realms. Tried them, and at this stage in the game they are just out. I'm sure some player that loves kender will comment that I'm a racist as I've seen in threads elsewhere when their favorite race is disallowed. Whatever. It's a game. It's a fictional race, and in this case a fictional wall. I'm still on the fence about dragonborn, at least in regards to the whole returned Abeir thing because I'm not sure if I'm including that either. Anything else, except for those things I expressly forbid, are simply things I'm not doing. I explained the likelihood of it ever happening was pretty much never, simply because I have a pretty good idea of what direction my campaign is heading, and an adventure to the Fugue Plain isn't part of what's planned. Perhaps if my interest was piqued enough I would. This thread, nor this discussion, has piqued my interest in running that type of campaign. Sorry. The Wall exists, at least in the beliefs of the Realmsfolk of my Realms. If somebody writes a novel of somebody that destroys the Wall that fits within my Realms, then no problem, it becomes part of the campaign lore. If it's destroyed by gully dwarves, kender and a giant space hamster, then it probably won't make it into my campaign's lore. If it's part of a dragonborn and tiefling storyline, then I'm on the fence. It's probably more likely to make my campaign if Erin M Evans writes it, but on the other hand I'm really not a fan of the whole returned Abeir, nor the way dragonborn and tieflings are presented in the 5th edition. So who knows. I guess I don't have to worry about it until somebody writes the book. I'm not here to try to convince you to run your campaign my way. You and others have asked how and why I and others approach the subject of the Wall in our Forgotten Realms campaign. I'm not sure why you continue to insist or imply that there is some problem with me not wanting to run a campaign specifically to destroy the wall. I've spent more time considering the wall in the last few days than in the last few decades. I love the discussion, I love threads that make me think. But it's not an interesting enough subject to me to do other than just think about it and discuss it. It's certainly helped me clarify how I think the Gods, their domains, the afterlife, and yes, even the wall works. Ilbranteloth [/QUOTE]
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