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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Forked: "Math and Grind" or "Why Rechan is Right" (From: "4e One-trick ponies")
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<blockquote data-quote="Rechan" data-source="post: 4646654" data-attributes="member: 54846"><p>As I said elsewhere, I don't think that's the source of grind, necessarily.</p><p></p><p>The problem comes when everyone's done their thing, used their encounter powers... and the fight's only half over. Certainly monster HP can contribute, but it's more symptomatic than a true cause of grind.</p><p></p><p>More over, when an hour into a two hour battle, it's obvious the PCs are going to win, but the monsters just aren't dead yet, and the monsters have nothing left that's interesting. For instance, the PCs killed all the monsters except for two artillery monsters, who are still at full health; <strong>even if everyone did max damage on every attack</strong>, that's still a waste of time because it's shooting fish in a barrel. Add in a miss here and there, and it goes forever.</p><p></p><p>I say that the hit points factor in only slightly here. The same result could happen if the PCs are fighting 4 minions, and due to the dice, can't hit the minions for 5 rounds. </p><p></p><p>The problem is: the fight gets boring. The fight is boring because there's nothing left to change things up, make the fight <em>interesting</em>. Powers make the fight interesting. Monster abilities make the fight interesting. Terrain make the fight interesting.</p><p></p><p>I'm fairly certain that even if the monsters had 1/4 their HP, it would still feel like grind if everyone fought to the death using At-Wills in a 6x6 barren room.</p><p></p><p>This is also exacerbated by monsters that have debilitating effects. Stuns, grabs, dazes, weakening effects, immobilizing, blinding, auras/powers that decrease hits - anything that prolongs the PCs from killing the monster. They usually result in "Can I get to it/do something to it this round? No? Okay." </p><p></p><p>I feel this is particularly true when you miss with your encounter/daily powers. You can only use them once in the battle, and if they miss, well, there goes a wasted resource that, due to its absence, makes the fight longer, <em>and</em> frustrating for the player.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rechan, post: 4646654, member: 54846"] As I said elsewhere, I don't think that's the source of grind, necessarily. The problem comes when everyone's done their thing, used their encounter powers... and the fight's only half over. Certainly monster HP can contribute, but it's more symptomatic than a true cause of grind. More over, when an hour into a two hour battle, it's obvious the PCs are going to win, but the monsters just aren't dead yet, and the monsters have nothing left that's interesting. For instance, the PCs killed all the monsters except for two artillery monsters, who are still at full health; [B]even if everyone did max damage on every attack[/B], that's still a waste of time because it's shooting fish in a barrel. Add in a miss here and there, and it goes forever. I say that the hit points factor in only slightly here. The same result could happen if the PCs are fighting 4 minions, and due to the dice, can't hit the minions for 5 rounds. The problem is: the fight gets boring. The fight is boring because there's nothing left to change things up, make the fight [I]interesting[/I]. Powers make the fight interesting. Monster abilities make the fight interesting. Terrain make the fight interesting. I'm fairly certain that even if the monsters had 1/4 their HP, it would still feel like grind if everyone fought to the death using At-Wills in a 6x6 barren room. This is also exacerbated by monsters that have debilitating effects. Stuns, grabs, dazes, weakening effects, immobilizing, blinding, auras/powers that decrease hits - anything that prolongs the PCs from killing the monster. They usually result in "Can I get to it/do something to it this round? No? Okay." I feel this is particularly true when you miss with your encounter/daily powers. You can only use them once in the battle, and if they miss, well, there goes a wasted resource that, due to its absence, makes the fight longer, [I]and[/I] frustrating for the player. [/QUOTE]
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Forked: "Math and Grind" or "Why Rechan is Right" (From: "4e One-trick ponies")
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