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<blockquote data-quote="Marshall" data-source="post: 7314426" data-attributes="member: 765"><p>Uh, no. The Berserker and the multirole concept were abject failures by a design team that didnt understand the concept. The idea of switching between roles just means that half your abilities and/or powers are inaccessable at any given time.</p><p>The whole point of the role system was to define what the class was ALWAYS capable of, it never was a shackle on broadening classes capabilities. Even as early as the PHB, the concept of the subrole was implicitly applied. 2H Fighters were sub-strikers, Warlocks were always sub-controllers, Paladins are sub-leaders, etc, etc...</p><p>The same issue arises with the multi-power source classes, they are a result of a gross misunderstanding of the concept...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Most of the actually good high level battles I played involved some form of SC that had to be completed to win. Its just way too easy for a coordinated team to tear thru any sized bag of HP at high level to make that a focal point. </p><p>So, yeah. Building 1e style puzzle monsters with integrated SCs and some good examples of terrain challenges/powers would go a long way.</p><p></p><p>It occurs to me that that is most of 4e's problem, its a fantastic 1000pc double sided jigsaw puzzle with no box art to show what it can do...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Define 'fiddly'? None of the attack boosters are fiddly. Whether some are necessary is a different story. The last thing you want to do is remove all form of customization and tactics by collapsing everything into Dis/Ad. </p><p>Now, if you're referring to the glut of +2 damage on Mondays with a Butter Knife type bonuses....then yeah. 4e doesnt reward strategic thinking enough. Surprise is mostly useless, so no one tries to get it. Having a Boar Spear when fighting Boars(frex) is usually such a minor advantage that its not worth the effort to pick one up or the cost of doing so is impossible to pay. (Ex. Swapping to a spear obviates all your hammer feats, powers)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Losing the Move Action for Speed was the only actual improvement that 5e made, then they went and borked it by making withdrawl an action, the bonus action insanity and collapsing all the reactions...trading engagement for some nebulous time bonus isnt good.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marshall, post: 7314426, member: 765"] Uh, no. The Berserker and the multirole concept were abject failures by a design team that didnt understand the concept. The idea of switching between roles just means that half your abilities and/or powers are inaccessable at any given time. The whole point of the role system was to define what the class was ALWAYS capable of, it never was a shackle on broadening classes capabilities. Even as early as the PHB, the concept of the subrole was implicitly applied. 2H Fighters were sub-strikers, Warlocks were always sub-controllers, Paladins are sub-leaders, etc, etc... The same issue arises with the multi-power source classes, they are a result of a gross misunderstanding of the concept... Most of the actually good high level battles I played involved some form of SC that had to be completed to win. Its just way too easy for a coordinated team to tear thru any sized bag of HP at high level to make that a focal point. So, yeah. Building 1e style puzzle monsters with integrated SCs and some good examples of terrain challenges/powers would go a long way. It occurs to me that that is most of 4e's problem, its a fantastic 1000pc double sided jigsaw puzzle with no box art to show what it can do... Define 'fiddly'? None of the attack boosters are fiddly. Whether some are necessary is a different story. The last thing you want to do is remove all form of customization and tactics by collapsing everything into Dis/Ad. Now, if you're referring to the glut of +2 damage on Mondays with a Butter Knife type bonuses....then yeah. 4e doesnt reward strategic thinking enough. Surprise is mostly useless, so no one tries to get it. Having a Boar Spear when fighting Boars(frex) is usually such a minor advantage that its not worth the effort to pick one up or the cost of doing so is impossible to pay. (Ex. Swapping to a spear obviates all your hammer feats, powers) Losing the Move Action for Speed was the only actual improvement that 5e made, then they went and borked it by making withdrawl an action, the bonus action insanity and collapsing all the reactions...trading engagement for some nebulous time bonus isnt good. [/QUOTE]
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