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Fred Thompson
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<blockquote data-quote="The_Universe" data-source="post: 2280312" data-attributes="member: 8944"><p>Made a quick correction here - you're speaking of the post-civil war President of the United States, correct? That's Andrew Johnson, a notably less colorful figure (and notably younger) than Andrew Jackson, who served two terms as president from 1828-1836 (about 35 years before Johnson did). </p><p> </p><p> And there were no other social consequences among the southern gentry for those sons that chose not to serve? Surely, that cannot have been a popular choice...?</p><p> </p><p> How did he pay for it? Confederate currency (assuming he had any) would have been worthless, and it's reasonably likely that any slaves he had would have been emancipated (and/or northern carpetbaggers) would have control of his lands in the immediate aftermath of the war. Further, it's also possible that further destruction would have been visited on the plantation before the war was even over. The area was certainly of some interest to that Northern devil William Tecumsuh Sherman, who orchestrated three raids on Confederate forts at McCallister and Pulaski (both major fortifications of Savannah). That doesn't even count the destruction visited upon the region during his infamous "march to the sea...."</p><p> </p><p> I'm sure I could find some information, but I'm curious if you have a preference - where and with whom did he serve during the war?</p><p> </p><p> No carpetbaggers swooping in to take control? </p><p> </p><p> I'd leave this out, for now. The major spate of airship sightings comes later than this - but I'll work it in another way. </p><p> </p><p> So she's eight years old at this point? How soon did her governence/education begin? Also - I think that most of New Mexico was already held by Spanish land grants that had been bought up by white men and (in some cases) foreign interests. If he did find a place to settle that wasn't claimed (It's possible) it's got to be a god-awful arid desert - as your own research notes, if the land had any production capacity for *anything* by 1867, it was already claimed by somebody. </p><p> </p><p>Do you mind if we make him a squatter/settler on one of the apropriate land grants? That makes more sense, and it has more dramatic potential than the few quarter-acres that a homestedder is allowed. Also, the provisions of the homestead act required that the land be tilled and improved, and New Mexico isn't known as the nations' breadbasket for a reason. You note something similar below, but based on my knowledge of the homestead act, I don't think his claim would qualify (unless it's a feckless desert). If he was running cattle or sheep (both likely), he'd need to buy out or squat on some land, anyway.</p><p> </p><p> How did he do that? The Apaches generally spoke at least some spanish (they recieved encouragement, weapons and supplies from Mexico, which maintained designs on the lands until around 1920), but the Utes kept more to themselves, and they were at war with *each other* at the same times they were at war with the ubiquitous white man. </p><p> </p><p> This seems...unlikely. Unless Jonas had a small army with which to make his army, the Apaches would probably have just murdered the family - especially if it was somewhat distant from an existing settlement. While the Apaches (and most native americans) are not simply ravenous murderers, nor are they the peaceful proto-hippies that modern pop culture would have you believe. Overall, however, they were pretty bad - and as the timeline progresses, we're going to get closer and closer to Victorio and Geronimo's war(s), both of which would have included the area of which we speak. </p><p> </p><p> At this point, the Apaches have the weight of force behind them - is there any particular reason they would have agreed to this? It's not like Jonas, an 8 or 9 year old girl and a governess were going to stand off Apaches that wanted something.</p><p> </p><p> I thought the Harmons came in from outside, entirely? But this is really fine. I don't think this is a big enough detail to worry about one way or the other. </p><p> </p><p> How old is she at this point?</p><p> </p><p> How progressive of him. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> A descendent of Mel Gibson's character from the Patriot, perhaps?</p><p> </p><p> It's probably a little early for her to be learning chinese. Until the Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe Railroad reaches Springer in 1879, she'd have a hard time *finding* chinese people from which to learn. </p><p> </p><p> Once more, a homestead from the homestead act wouldn't have been large enough to support a ranch, let alone a ranch large enough to support several family homes spread out over the prairie - I think this part of the history needs some work. </p><p> </p><p>In 1873, Railroad owners came to attempt to purchase Jonas Thompson's land for a rail that they were intending to build. Jonas refused. It was a lucrative offer, but selling the land would be the end to the Ranch and the Apache sanctuary. </p><p> </p><p> This is *waaaaay* fishy, in part because the apache sanctuary just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the land. The Apache might be around, but they're probably not as peacable and cooperative as your tale makes them.</p><p> </p><p>Not sure about this, partly because of the age. </p><p> </p><p> Some involvement with the admittedly bizarre Kennedy affair is possible, but I might prefer that we take a different tack with it. Once more, the airship thing will probably come in later in some form or another, and its appearance here just doesn't jive. Also, the sensationalistic involvement of a 15-16 year old girl in his capture would probably have garnered a great deal of attention from the press. I do like having her be a driver, or something - I can use that, but the details are a bit wonky.</p><p> </p><p> Also, while I don't mind adjusting the Kennedy events in time a bit, Clay Allison had little to do with it...and he's also a <em>really</em> bad guy...which makes some of the following information...weird. Not least because by 1875 he's more than 2x her age.</p><p> </p><p> This works much better if he was a squatter, rather than a legitimate landowner - if he actually owned the land, he'd be much more likely to be a part of the Santa Fe Ring than to oppose it. </p><p> </p><p> And was also a 33rd degree Master Mason....coincidence? I doubt it...</p><p> </p><p>Everything else is fine, because it's just a retelling of actual history, though it almost all centers around Cimarron and Elizabethtown, and not Springer, which was (obviously) quite friendly to the railroad, and prospered from its status as a Railhead for a number of years.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The_Universe, post: 2280312, member: 8944"] Made a quick correction here - you're speaking of the post-civil war President of the United States, correct? That's Andrew Johnson, a notably less colorful figure (and notably younger) than Andrew Jackson, who served two terms as president from 1828-1836 (about 35 years before Johnson did). And there were no other social consequences among the southern gentry for those sons that chose not to serve? Surely, that cannot have been a popular choice...? How did he pay for it? Confederate currency (assuming he had any) would have been worthless, and it's reasonably likely that any slaves he had would have been emancipated (and/or northern carpetbaggers) would have control of his lands in the immediate aftermath of the war. Further, it's also possible that further destruction would have been visited on the plantation before the war was even over. The area was certainly of some interest to that Northern devil William Tecumsuh Sherman, who orchestrated three raids on Confederate forts at McCallister and Pulaski (both major fortifications of Savannah). That doesn't even count the destruction visited upon the region during his infamous "march to the sea...." I'm sure I could find some information, but I'm curious if you have a preference - where and with whom did he serve during the war? No carpetbaggers swooping in to take control? I'd leave this out, for now. The major spate of airship sightings comes later than this - but I'll work it in another way. So she's eight years old at this point? How soon did her governence/education begin? Also - I think that most of New Mexico was already held by Spanish land grants that had been bought up by white men and (in some cases) foreign interests. If he did find a place to settle that wasn't claimed (It's possible) it's got to be a god-awful arid desert - as your own research notes, if the land had any production capacity for *anything* by 1867, it was already claimed by somebody. Do you mind if we make him a squatter/settler on one of the apropriate land grants? That makes more sense, and it has more dramatic potential than the few quarter-acres that a homestedder is allowed. Also, the provisions of the homestead act required that the land be tilled and improved, and New Mexico isn't known as the nations' breadbasket for a reason. You note something similar below, but based on my knowledge of the homestead act, I don't think his claim would qualify (unless it's a feckless desert). If he was running cattle or sheep (both likely), he'd need to buy out or squat on some land, anyway. How did he do that? The Apaches generally spoke at least some spanish (they recieved encouragement, weapons and supplies from Mexico, which maintained designs on the lands until around 1920), but the Utes kept more to themselves, and they were at war with *each other* at the same times they were at war with the ubiquitous white man. This seems...unlikely. Unless Jonas had a small army with which to make his army, the Apaches would probably have just murdered the family - especially if it was somewhat distant from an existing settlement. While the Apaches (and most native americans) are not simply ravenous murderers, nor are they the peaceful proto-hippies that modern pop culture would have you believe. Overall, however, they were pretty bad - and as the timeline progresses, we're going to get closer and closer to Victorio and Geronimo's war(s), both of which would have included the area of which we speak. At this point, the Apaches have the weight of force behind them - is there any particular reason they would have agreed to this? It's not like Jonas, an 8 or 9 year old girl and a governess were going to stand off Apaches that wanted something. I thought the Harmons came in from outside, entirely? But this is really fine. I don't think this is a big enough detail to worry about one way or the other. How old is she at this point? How progressive of him. ;) A descendent of Mel Gibson's character from the Patriot, perhaps? It's probably a little early for her to be learning chinese. Until the Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe Railroad reaches Springer in 1879, she'd have a hard time *finding* chinese people from which to learn. Once more, a homestead from the homestead act wouldn't have been large enough to support a ranch, let alone a ranch large enough to support several family homes spread out over the prairie - I think this part of the history needs some work. In 1873, Railroad owners came to attempt to purchase Jonas Thompson's land for a rail that they were intending to build. Jonas refused. It was a lucrative offer, but selling the land would be the end to the Ranch and the Apache sanctuary. This is *waaaaay* fishy, in part because the apache sanctuary just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the land. The Apache might be around, but they're probably not as peacable and cooperative as your tale makes them. Not sure about this, partly because of the age. Some involvement with the admittedly bizarre Kennedy affair is possible, but I might prefer that we take a different tack with it. Once more, the airship thing will probably come in later in some form or another, and its appearance here just doesn't jive. Also, the sensationalistic involvement of a 15-16 year old girl in his capture would probably have garnered a great deal of attention from the press. I do like having her be a driver, or something - I can use that, but the details are a bit wonky. Also, while I don't mind adjusting the Kennedy events in time a bit, Clay Allison had little to do with it...and he's also a [i]really[/i] bad guy...which makes some of the following information...weird. Not least because by 1875 he's more than 2x her age. This works much better if he was a squatter, rather than a legitimate landowner - if he actually owned the land, he'd be much more likely to be a part of the Santa Fe Ring than to oppose it. And was also a 33rd degree Master Mason....coincidence? I doubt it... Everything else is fine, because it's just a retelling of actual history, though it almost all centers around Cimarron and Elizabethtown, and not Springer, which was (obviously) quite friendly to the railroad, and prospered from its status as a Railhead for a number of years. [/QUOTE]
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