Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Free Upcasting By Tier: A House-Rule
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8704107" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>Basic progression:</p><p>[code]</p><p>1 2</p><p>2 3</p><p>3 4 2</p><p>4 3 3</p><p>5 3 3 2</p><p>6 3 3 3</p><p>7 3 3 3 1</p><p>8 3 3 3 2</p><p>9 3 3 3 3 1</p><p>10 3 3 3 3 2</p><p>11 3 3 3 3 2 1</p><p>12 3 3 3 3 2 1</p><p>13 3 3 3 3 2 1 1</p><p>14 3 3 3 3 2 1 1</p><p>15 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1</p><p>16 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1</p><p>17 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1</p><p>18 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1</p><p>19 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1</p><p>20 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1</p><p>[/code]</p><p></p><p></p><p>Slots-level-up mode:</p><p>[code]</p><p>1 2</p><p>2 3</p><p>3 4 2</p><p>4 4 3</p><p>5 4 3 2</p><p>6 2 4 3</p><p>7 0 5 3 1</p><p>8 0 3 4 2</p><p>9 0 1 5 3 1</p><p>10 0 0 6 3 2</p><p>11 0 0 6 3 2 1</p><p>12 0 0 4 4 3 1</p><p>13 0 0 2 5 3 1 1</p><p>14 0 0 0 6 4 1 1</p><p>15 0 0 0 4 5 1 1 1</p><p>16 0 0 0 2 6 2 1 1</p><p>17 0 0 0 2 6 2 1 1 1</p><p>18 0 0 0 0 6 3 2 1 1</p><p>19 0 0 0 0 3 4 3 2 1</p><p>20 0 0 0 0 0 5 4 3 1</p><p>[/code]</p><p></p><p>To be clear, this slots-level-up mode is <strong>weaker</strong> than the OP's proposal I think.</p><p></p><p>...</p><p></p><p>So the basic combat effectiveness math of 5e is "baseline action use" (attack action, or cantrip), then you work out how much excess power you can generate based on what resources.</p><p></p><p>In T4, the baseline action use of a cantrip is a 4d10 or 4d12 spell. For warlocks it is a bit more.</p><p></p><p>Then you can take your spells and look at which of them exceed this. The fact that low level spells <strong>don't</strong> exceed this power budget is part of the ways that 5e casters reduce quadratic explosion (low order quadratic terms are ok; higher order ones explode power levels).</p><p></p><p>"one target, save negates" spell balance is <strong>roughly</strong> 10 damage per spell level. So a T4 cantrip is roughly equivalent to a 2nd level spell.</p><p></p><p>So your daily excess power budget is 3+3*2+3*3+2*4+2*5+1*6+1*7, or about 490 single-target damage.</p><p></p><p>Now "single target, could miss or do nothing" damage is a poor use of spell slots; those spells tend to suck (disintegrate anyone?) unless you do a combo to set them up. So in practice these numbers are lower than how effective a spellcaster is by a good margin.</p><p></p><p>But the point is that the lower level slots <strong>age out</strong> and become marginal for use in combat as damage. They remain useful as utility slots, or as tools to spread out the options the spellcaster has; casting fly to allow the barbarian to reach the foe turns concentration + a low level slot into a bunch of continuing damage.</p><p></p><p>Also doing this in units of 10 points above cantrip gives pretty poor DPR. If we use Rogue as our baseline, a Rogue TWF can easily deliver sneak attack damage at 95% and 75% of a short-swords weapon damage per round (between crits and hits) for about 40 auto-damage per round equivalent; this is worth about 60 "could miss" damage.</p><p></p><p>A 9th (90) + 8th (80) + 2 7th (70) + 2 6th(60) is 4 rounds; we then can do 2 5th (50) and a 3 4th (40) for 650 "could miss" damage over 11 rounds, or 59 "could miss" damage per round. In theory similar to the Rogue; in practice, better, because you use more efficient spells than "single target, could miss" ones.</p><p></p><p>With the changes in the OP, you end up with dozens of rounds you can do something similar to this. The rogue becomes pretty pointless; even the stuff they are good at gets far outclassed by a naive single target blaster mage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8704107, member: 72555"] Basic progression: [code] 1 2 2 3 3 4 2 4 3 3 5 3 3 2 6 3 3 3 7 3 3 3 1 8 3 3 3 2 9 3 3 3 3 1 10 3 3 3 3 2 11 3 3 3 3 2 1 12 3 3 3 3 2 1 13 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 14 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 15 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 16 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 17 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 18 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 19 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 20 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1 [/code] Slots-level-up mode: [code] 1 2 2 3 3 4 2 4 4 3 5 4 3 2 6 2 4 3 7 0 5 3 1 8 0 3 4 2 9 0 1 5 3 1 10 0 0 6 3 2 11 0 0 6 3 2 1 12 0 0 4 4 3 1 13 0 0 2 5 3 1 1 14 0 0 0 6 4 1 1 15 0 0 0 4 5 1 1 1 16 0 0 0 2 6 2 1 1 17 0 0 0 2 6 2 1 1 1 18 0 0 0 0 6 3 2 1 1 19 0 0 0 0 3 4 3 2 1 20 0 0 0 0 0 5 4 3 1 [/code] To be clear, this slots-level-up mode is [b]weaker[/b] than the OP's proposal I think. ... So the basic combat effectiveness math of 5e is "baseline action use" (attack action, or cantrip), then you work out how much excess power you can generate based on what resources. In T4, the baseline action use of a cantrip is a 4d10 or 4d12 spell. For warlocks it is a bit more. Then you can take your spells and look at which of them exceed this. The fact that low level spells [b]don't[/b] exceed this power budget is part of the ways that 5e casters reduce quadratic explosion (low order quadratic terms are ok; higher order ones explode power levels). "one target, save negates" spell balance is [b]roughly[/b] 10 damage per spell level. So a T4 cantrip is roughly equivalent to a 2nd level spell. So your daily excess power budget is 3+3*2+3*3+2*4+2*5+1*6+1*7, or about 490 single-target damage. Now "single target, could miss or do nothing" damage is a poor use of spell slots; those spells tend to suck (disintegrate anyone?) unless you do a combo to set them up. So in practice these numbers are lower than how effective a spellcaster is by a good margin. But the point is that the lower level slots [b]age out[/b] and become marginal for use in combat as damage. They remain useful as utility slots, or as tools to spread out the options the spellcaster has; casting fly to allow the barbarian to reach the foe turns concentration + a low level slot into a bunch of continuing damage. Also doing this in units of 10 points above cantrip gives pretty poor DPR. If we use Rogue as our baseline, a Rogue TWF can easily deliver sneak attack damage at 95% and 75% of a short-swords weapon damage per round (between crits and hits) for about 40 auto-damage per round equivalent; this is worth about 60 "could miss" damage. A 9th (90) + 8th (80) + 2 7th (70) + 2 6th(60) is 4 rounds; we then can do 2 5th (50) and a 3 4th (40) for 650 "could miss" damage over 11 rounds, or 59 "could miss" damage per round. In theory similar to the Rogue; in practice, better, because you use more efficient spells than "single target, could miss" ones. With the changes in the OP, you end up with dozens of rounds you can do something similar to this. The rogue becomes pretty pointless; even the stuff they are good at gets far outclassed by a naive single target blaster mage. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Free Upcasting By Tier: A House-Rule
Top