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<blockquote data-quote="glass" data-source="post: 8706994" data-attributes="member: 12251"><p>That's fair, I was talking primarily about 2e. I do not really understand the 1e initiative system, so I should not have said AD&D without qualification.</p><p></p><p></p><p>And IME, you simply could not avoid attacks (note not just melee - arrows were just as capable of disrupting).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you are understating how much better how much better saves were (at least in 2e). A high level Rogue makes a save vs breath weapon on 11+ (50% chance), but that is an extreme outlier (and really bizarre now I look at it). Conversely, at the opposite extreme Priests saved against PPDM on 2+ (95%). Aside from Rogues, people's <em>worst</em> saves are typically between 5+ and 8+. All straight from the table, before any modifiers for high ability scores, items, etc.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, a 5e character's worst save has a non-trivial chance of being +0, vs DCs which have scaled into the high teens if not 20s (the latter being literally impossible for such a character AFAICS).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Once again, 4e nerfed casters. 5e added a lot of the old power back (just not all of it).</p><p></p><p></p><p>It literally is a power boost. The only really question is "how big?"</p><p></p><p>_</p><p>glass.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="glass, post: 8706994, member: 12251"] That's fair, I was talking primarily about 2e. I do not really understand the 1e initiative system, so I should not have said AD&D without qualification. And IME, you simply could not avoid attacks (note not just melee - arrows were just as capable of disrupting). I think you are understating how much better how much better saves were (at least in 2e). A high level Rogue makes a save vs breath weapon on 11+ (50% chance), but that is an extreme outlier (and really bizarre now I look at it). Conversely, at the opposite extreme Priests saved against PPDM on 2+ (95%). Aside from Rogues, people's [I]worst[/I] saves are typically between 5+ and 8+. All straight from the table, before any modifiers for high ability scores, items, etc. Conversely, a 5e character's worst save has a non-trivial chance of being +0, vs DCs which have scaled into the high teens if not 20s (the latter being literally impossible for such a character AFAICS). Once again, 4e nerfed casters. 5e added a lot of the old power back (just not all of it). It literally is a power boost. The only really question is "how big?" _ glass. [/QUOTE]
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