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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7738653" data-attributes="member: 20564"><p>Folks are forgetting the most common mechanic, by this description, for short-circuiting player agency since the original D&D.</p><p></p><p>Hit points.</p><p></p><p>Incredibly common mechanic that can cause the player to sit out for short (knocked unconscious) to extended (death) periods. Depending on how things go, you might not even be back by the end of the session and start the next session out - resurrection magic may not be close at hand or may involve an overnight rest to prepare.</p><p></p><p>Yet somehow, it's still in use and commonly accepted.</p><p></p><p>I think it's because the definition of loss of player agency given here is incomplete. Accepting that there is risk and chance of failure IS player agency. We accept it by playing a game where our characters can die or worse. You can only remove player agency by doing things to them that they don't agree to.</p><p></p><p>And that is something you can know when you see it. If your PC is mind controlled by the illithid while fighting them, that's an accepted risk and part of the game that the player has accepted, so it's not impacting their agency. On the other hand if your PC is suddenly stopped by a omnipotent and unforeseen force that isn't part of the game but instead is the DM heavyhandedly protecting a precious plot point or favored NPC - that's a different story.</p><p></p><p>So when you think about player agency, think about what the player has freely agreed to, even if it can be detrimental to their character. It's only when it's something the /player/ hasn't signed on for that you can really impact it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blue, post: 7738653, member: 20564"] Folks are forgetting the most common mechanic, by this description, for short-circuiting player agency since the original D&D. Hit points. Incredibly common mechanic that can cause the player to sit out for short (knocked unconscious) to extended (death) periods. Depending on how things go, you might not even be back by the end of the session and start the next session out - resurrection magic may not be close at hand or may involve an overnight rest to prepare. Yet somehow, it's still in use and commonly accepted. I think it's because the definition of loss of player agency given here is incomplete. Accepting that there is risk and chance of failure IS player agency. We accept it by playing a game where our characters can die or worse. You can only remove player agency by doing things to them that they don't agree to. And that is something you can know when you see it. If your PC is mind controlled by the illithid while fighting them, that's an accepted risk and part of the game that the player has accepted, so it's not impacting their agency. On the other hand if your PC is suddenly stopped by a omnipotent and unforeseen force that isn't part of the game but instead is the DM heavyhandedly protecting a precious plot point or favored NPC - that's a different story. So when you think about player agency, think about what the player has freely agreed to, even if it can be detrimental to their character. It's only when it's something the /player/ hasn't signed on for that you can really impact it. [/QUOTE]
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