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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7741614" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Again, I think what you're identifying here is a bad mechanic. There's no actual game I know of that involves social mechanics that works as you describe. Burning Wheel comes closest, but its Persuasion skill pertains to requests or proposals, not full-scale conversion, and the obstacle penalty in these circumstances would be +2 (so Hitler might be rolling 7 or 8 dice hoping to get 4+ on 6 of them, if the spy has Will 4 - which would be at the lower end for a top-notch spy).</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, in BW the player is always free to call for a Duel of Wits if s/he thinks it's a big deal. So instead of just being persuaded on a single check, s/he can start debating the point with Hitler and have the thing unfold as a debate or argument between them. If Hitler wins that DoW, then that is the outcome of a sustained piece of resolution in which the player matched his/her PC against Hitler!</p><p></p><p>The basic orientation of BW is <em>fight for what you believe</em>, which brings with it the possibility of finding out that, on this occasion at least, you didn't quite have what it takes.</p><p></p><p>In Burning Wheel, the Intimidate skill can be used to force a Steel check. Various actions in a Duel of Wits can also have this effect.</p><p></p><p>In Cortex+ Heroic, a character can make a check to inflict a fear-related complication, or emotional stress, on another character. PCs and NPCs are completely symmetrical in this respect. The same reolution system is used to determine wither Wolverine scares someone with his claws, whether a telepath scares someone by forcing them to recall a frightening memory, or whether a dragon scares someone with its aura of fear.</p><p></p><p>A lot of your approach to this discussion seems to be adopting a 5e take on this - for instance, your conception of what skills are and what they're for. As best I understand it, 5e has fairly unclear rules for determining the consequences of skill checks whether made by players for PCs or by the GM for NPCs.</p><p></p><p>As is probably clear, I'm not coming from a particularly 5e point of view. When I think of D&D skills my paradigm is 4e, and there is no inherent difference between skills and other capabilities in 4e. (Though 4e does not, in general, have robust NPC-to-PC influence mechanics, because it's main mechanic for handling the outcomes of skill checks - namely, the skill challenge - is entirely a player-side thing.)</p><p></p><p>That said, nothing about 4e would stop the GM having a creature make an Intimidation check to inflict a round of dazed on a PC, or perhaps 1 square of forced movement back. This is part of the broader "p 42" system for determining checks and consequences of checks in 4e, as amplified by a mix of common sense and the late wrecan's article on how to adjudicate non-damage consequences.</p><p></p><p>Don't all elements of character build give the player of the character some way or other of overcoming obstacles or changing the fiction in some desired fashion?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7741614, member: 42582"] Again, I think what you're identifying here is a bad mechanic. There's no actual game I know of that involves social mechanics that works as you describe. Burning Wheel comes closest, but its Persuasion skill pertains to requests or proposals, not full-scale conversion, and the obstacle penalty in these circumstances would be +2 (so Hitler might be rolling 7 or 8 dice hoping to get 4+ on 6 of them, if the spy has Will 4 - which would be at the lower end for a top-notch spy). Furthermore, in BW the player is always free to call for a Duel of Wits if s/he thinks it's a big deal. So instead of just being persuaded on a single check, s/he can start debating the point with Hitler and have the thing unfold as a debate or argument between them. If Hitler wins that DoW, then that is the outcome of a sustained piece of resolution in which the player matched his/her PC against Hitler! The basic orientation of BW is [I]fight for what you believe[/I], which brings with it the possibility of finding out that, on this occasion at least, you didn't quite have what it takes. In Burning Wheel, the Intimidate skill can be used to force a Steel check. Various actions in a Duel of Wits can also have this effect. In Cortex+ Heroic, a character can make a check to inflict a fear-related complication, or emotional stress, on another character. PCs and NPCs are completely symmetrical in this respect. The same reolution system is used to determine wither Wolverine scares someone with his claws, whether a telepath scares someone by forcing them to recall a frightening memory, or whether a dragon scares someone with its aura of fear. A lot of your approach to this discussion seems to be adopting a 5e take on this - for instance, your conception of what skills are and what they're for. As best I understand it, 5e has fairly unclear rules for determining the consequences of skill checks whether made by players for PCs or by the GM for NPCs. As is probably clear, I'm not coming from a particularly 5e point of view. When I think of D&D skills my paradigm is 4e, and there is no inherent difference between skills and other capabilities in 4e. (Though 4e does not, in general, have robust NPC-to-PC influence mechanics, because it's main mechanic for handling the outcomes of skill checks - namely, the skill challenge - is entirely a player-side thing.) That said, nothing about 4e would stop the GM having a creature make an Intimidation check to inflict a round of dazed on a PC, or perhaps 1 square of forced movement back. This is part of the broader "p 42" system for determining checks and consequences of checks in 4e, as amplified by a mix of common sense and the late wrecan's article on how to adjudicate non-damage consequences. Don't all elements of character build give the player of the character some way or other of overcoming obstacles or changing the fiction in some desired fashion? [/QUOTE]
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