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<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7742834" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>If this is the primary point on the "don't" side, with most of the rest expounding upon this point of contention, then I hope you do not mind me cutting out most of your post. I will cut out some key snippets. You raise a number of excellent points, and you elucidate them well, so I hope that I can respond to your post in a manner that does your excellent post respect and justice. </p><p></p><p>First on this point, I would not say "that NPCs and PCs are equivalent structures and should be impacted by mechanics in the same way." This position is too extreme of one that I hold nor I do appear to have said as much in what you have quoted. I would say that they are often <em>similar</em> structures and that there are in-game <em>occurrences</em> when they should be impacted by mechanics in the same way or perhaps an appropriately similar way. </p><p></p><p>Which I have neither assumned nor advocated for. In fact, I am not sure if this general scenario would be worth a skill check in the first place, given how - as nearly everyone in this debate has acknowledged - almost all groups will bite, at least as a courtesy to the GM. But if there was a scenario that required social skill checks with an NPC and the PC Party that would be suggestive of negotiations, my likeliest approach, both in the context of 4-5e, Fate, and potentially games like Pathfinder as well, would be to set up a skill challenge. (This touches heavily on your last three paragraphs on NPCs using social skills in the context of players, and I suspect would mostly agree here.) The players would roll their Diplomacy/Persuasion/Rapport skill check as part of a series of various rolls: e.g., Bluff/Deception, Insight/Sense Motive, etc. If the players roll a Diplomacy check, then I might treat this as a skill contest in which the NPC would then roll their Diplomacy bonus. If the NPC beat their roll, then the NPC would gain a "win" notch (or the PCs a "loss" notch) in these negotiations that would potentially affect the outcome conditions. See more below: </p><p>Indeed, but I would frame this less as a "reverse skill challenge," but just a regular one where the NPC can. This is similar, for me at least, to an environmental challenge, such as escaping a dungeon that is collapsing around the players. In this case, the players are navigating the minefield of a potentially tense and precarious social situation. There should be stakes in the negotiations that amount to more than "we are going" or "not going." These are possible outcomes, as opposed to the stakes, of failed negotiations. In Fate, I would likely be more transparent about the stakes of the skill challenge, so that players could potentially leverage their resources at key moments, as you allude to in your post. Your final three paragraphs only reinforce my point more heavily: NPC skill checks should have mechanical weight, including when they are using social skills against the PCs. Skill challenges and contests are several ways in which there is mechanical weight to NPC skill use. </p><p></p><p>I largely agree with your points apart from logical leap in the bold. I do not think that it says this at all. Or at the very least, it requires some additional assumptions, steps, and other attitudes to be present that are not inherently implied in the statement. And again, my primary point is not a unilateral subjugation of the PCs to the rules of NPCs, but when apt. And in this case, the primary point of contention has been over the use of NPC skills. </p><p></p><p>But since this post, more helpful examples have come into play than the farcical Prince rolls a Diplomacy check so you are forced to save his daughter, namely an NPC/PC using a Bluff/Deception check on a PC. This is a point where the player often seeks to use an argument that appeals to their character's "head space" to opt-out of their characters being deceived.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7742834, member: 5142"] If this is the primary point on the "don't" side, with most of the rest expounding upon this point of contention, then I hope you do not mind me cutting out most of your post. I will cut out some key snippets. You raise a number of excellent points, and you elucidate them well, so I hope that I can respond to your post in a manner that does your excellent post respect and justice. First on this point, I would not say "that NPCs and PCs are equivalent structures and should be impacted by mechanics in the same way." This position is too extreme of one that I hold nor I do appear to have said as much in what you have quoted. I would say that they are often [I]similar[/I] structures and that there are in-game [I]occurrences[/I] when they should be impacted by mechanics in the same way or perhaps an appropriately similar way. Which I have neither assumned nor advocated for. In fact, I am not sure if this general scenario would be worth a skill check in the first place, given how - as nearly everyone in this debate has acknowledged - almost all groups will bite, at least as a courtesy to the GM. But if there was a scenario that required social skill checks with an NPC and the PC Party that would be suggestive of negotiations, my likeliest approach, both in the context of 4-5e, Fate, and potentially games like Pathfinder as well, would be to set up a skill challenge. (This touches heavily on your last three paragraphs on NPCs using social skills in the context of players, and I suspect would mostly agree here.) The players would roll their Diplomacy/Persuasion/Rapport skill check as part of a series of various rolls: e.g., Bluff/Deception, Insight/Sense Motive, etc. If the players roll a Diplomacy check, then I might treat this as a skill contest in which the NPC would then roll their Diplomacy bonus. If the NPC beat their roll, then the NPC would gain a "win" notch (or the PCs a "loss" notch) in these negotiations that would potentially affect the outcome conditions. See more below: Indeed, but I would frame this less as a "reverse skill challenge," but just a regular one where the NPC can. This is similar, for me at least, to an environmental challenge, such as escaping a dungeon that is collapsing around the players. In this case, the players are navigating the minefield of a potentially tense and precarious social situation. There should be stakes in the negotiations that amount to more than "we are going" or "not going." These are possible outcomes, as opposed to the stakes, of failed negotiations. In Fate, I would likely be more transparent about the stakes of the skill challenge, so that players could potentially leverage their resources at key moments, as you allude to in your post. Your final three paragraphs only reinforce my point more heavily: NPC skill checks should have mechanical weight, including when they are using social skills against the PCs. Skill challenges and contests are several ways in which there is mechanical weight to NPC skill use. I largely agree with your points apart from logical leap in the bold. I do not think that it says this at all. Or at the very least, it requires some additional assumptions, steps, and other attitudes to be present that are not inherently implied in the statement. And again, my primary point is not a unilateral subjugation of the PCs to the rules of NPCs, but when apt. And in this case, the primary point of contention has been over the use of NPC skills. But since this post, more helpful examples have come into play than the farcical Prince rolls a Diplomacy check so you are forced to save his daughter, namely an NPC/PC using a Bluff/Deception check on a PC. This is a point where the player often seeks to use an argument that appeals to their character's "head space" to opt-out of their characters being deceived. [/QUOTE]
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