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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7742854" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>The first and the last parts are there to enable the middle part. If you're removing choice, then what you're doing is just narrating to the players, not playing an RPG. And, honestly, sometimes it's fine to narrate things, depending on the game and the social contract, but we should pretend that we're doing anything else by pretending we're following the play procedures. In other words, sure, you can remove agency, but that's exactly what I'm saying is a problem. Pointing out that you can still remove agency when my entire argument is that you shouldn't and the game is built in a way that if you use it's procedures with integrity you will not is rather... unhelpful?</p><p></p><p>And, for the last part, this is noble cause corruption -- I believe I'm doing this thing for a noble cause, therefore my means are reasonable to achieve that cause. It's circular thinking and not valid. You, as DM, have no special insight into what a better game is, you only have your bias towards your anticipated outcomes. Any steering you do will be to achieve your anticipated outcomes, which isn't the same thing as a good game. It may be, but that's accidental rather than given using this framework. That some DMs see success is foiled by the huge number of anecdotes on this board alone of DMs forcing play in ways that players hate. Yet, using your construction here, the DMs are justified to do so and it's the player's fault for having a bad time because they're not going along with the DM's whims. You're justifying the worst of railroads alongside the hypothetical noble use that has a good result.</p><p></p><p></p><p>"I can't tell you how you can tell, but I'm certain that it's not hard to tell?" Really. :|</p><p></p><p>And yes, the role of DM is to provide flexibility in the situation, to create where the game leads. This doesn't also imply that the role of the DM is to occasionally override player moves and instead play the PCs for a bit so that the game works better.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7742854, member: 16814"] The first and the last parts are there to enable the middle part. If you're removing choice, then what you're doing is just narrating to the players, not playing an RPG. And, honestly, sometimes it's fine to narrate things, depending on the game and the social contract, but we should pretend that we're doing anything else by pretending we're following the play procedures. In other words, sure, you can remove agency, but that's exactly what I'm saying is a problem. Pointing out that you can still remove agency when my entire argument is that you shouldn't and the game is built in a way that if you use it's procedures with integrity you will not is rather... unhelpful? And, for the last part, this is noble cause corruption -- I believe I'm doing this thing for a noble cause, therefore my means are reasonable to achieve that cause. It's circular thinking and not valid. You, as DM, have no special insight into what a better game is, you only have your bias towards your anticipated outcomes. Any steering you do will be to achieve your anticipated outcomes, which isn't the same thing as a good game. It may be, but that's accidental rather than given using this framework. That some DMs see success is foiled by the huge number of anecdotes on this board alone of DMs forcing play in ways that players hate. Yet, using your construction here, the DMs are justified to do so and it's the player's fault for having a bad time because they're not going along with the DM's whims. You're justifying the worst of railroads alongside the hypothetical noble use that has a good result. "I can't tell you how you can tell, but I'm certain that it's not hard to tell?" Really. :| And yes, the role of DM is to provide flexibility in the situation, to create where the game leads. This doesn't also imply that the role of the DM is to occasionally override player moves and instead play the PCs for a bit so that the game works better. [/QUOTE]
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