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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7744675" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The players can have in character goals that they don't achieve.</p><p></p><p>In my BW game, the mage PC, who is the lead PC (in that it is that player who participates in all the sessions, while others are a bit more hit-and-miss), entered the campaign with the goal of freeing his brother from possession by a balrog. At one point it was established that his brother was a nasty piece of work (because of the way that (i) another player had written a nasty magical mentor into a PC backstory, and (ii) the way the intersection between those two backstories was developed in play between the two players). Subsequently, it was established that the brother was probably evil <em>before</em> being possessed (hence his evil caused possession, rather than the vice versa that the PC had believed). This was the result of a series of failed checks by the player of the mage PC. The conclusion of this initial arc was the second PC beheading the brother before the mage PC could stop her (in the end, it came down to a contest to see who could be the first to get to the wizard's tower where the brother was recuperating from injury; the second character won the contest).</p><p></p><p>That was a failure.</p><p></p><p>In my main 4e game (which has been on hold for most of a year while one member of the group renovates his house), <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque" target="_blank">the PCs' amibtion is to make it the case that the time of the Dusk War has not yet come</a>. Yet one PC is also committed to assembling the Rod of Seven Parts, even though it is known that this is a harbinger of the Dusk War. And most of the PCs are opposed to reformulating the Lattice of Heaven, but (i) help with the assembling of the Rod, which will then allow the Lattice of Heaven to be rebuilt, and (ii) keep doing things that further the interests of the Raven Queen, although that also seems to be about helping her re-establishe the Lattice of Heaven with her as the ruler of the cosmos.</p><p></p><p>These conflicts between hopes and actions, with interweave with discordant goals among the PCs, could well lead to failure.</p><p></p><p>There have also been local failures. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?312367-Actual-play-another-combat-free-session-with-intra-party-dyanmics" target="_blank">Here's a report of one</a> that I wrote up and, at the time, found rather poignant. <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?332755-PCs-bring-destruction-down-upon-the-duergar" target="_blank">The PCs bringing destruction to the duergar would be another failure, I think</a>.</p><p></p><p>In my Cortex+ Heroic game the PCs set out to solve the mystery of the strange Northern Lights and the disturbances in the world of the animal spirits, only to get stuck in a dungeon after being teleported deep into it by a Crypt Thing. One was able to trick the dark elves out of their treasure and return to the surface to live it up; by the time the others escaped, and rejoined him, the Fell Winter had set in and reavers were roaming the lands destroying villages. Another instance of failure.</p><p></p><p>A full discussion of the issue of "achievement" is probably for another thread. Composing a symphony is an achievement; so is throwing a discus 60 metres. Winning a wargame scenario is an achievement; in my view, so is devising a solution to the problem of <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?435239-PCs-vs-Demonweb-Pits-%28continued%29" target="_blank">defeating Lolth</a> and <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?440504-The-Abyss-sealed-the-drow-freed-the-campaign-reaches-its-climax" target="_blank">sealing the Abyss</a>.</p><p></p><p>I think there is something related in the neighbourhood. I had thought of posting it yesterday, but felt it might be hard to explain and/or misunderstood - but your post gives it a sensible context.</p><p></p><p>I have posted about using a particular mechanical method to <em>reach a paeticular compromise</em> - do we go to place X next, or to place Y. Some posters have treated this as (more-or-less) equivalent to - do we do thing A, or thing B; where things A and B are understood as extended over some period of time.</p><p></p><p>This makes sense if one assumes that place X is where thing A is going to happen, and place Y is where thing B is going to happen. But if that assumption doesn't hold, then nor does the equivalence.</p><p></p><p>In the sort of game I run, the assumption doesn't hold. Place X is different from place Y, and so offers different opportunities for players to declare actions (eg you can declare different actions in the Abyss compared to the Underdark). But there is no concern that X means some pre-determined A which is different from the B the compromising PC (and player) may have wanted to pursue. Even in place X, stuff is still going to happen that speaks to that PC (it will just be Abyssal stuff rather than Underdark-y stuff).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7744675, member: 42582"] The players can have in character goals that they don't achieve. In my BW game, the mage PC, who is the lead PC (in that it is that player who participates in all the sessions, while others are a bit more hit-and-miss), entered the campaign with the goal of freeing his brother from possession by a balrog. At one point it was established that his brother was a nasty piece of work (because of the way that (i) another player had written a nasty magical mentor into a PC backstory, and (ii) the way the intersection between those two backstories was developed in play between the two players). Subsequently, it was established that the brother was probably evil [I]before[/I] being possessed (hence his evil caused possession, rather than the vice versa that the PC had believed). This was the result of a series of failed checks by the player of the mage PC. The conclusion of this initial arc was the second PC beheading the brother before the mage PC could stop her (in the end, it came down to a contest to see who could be the first to get to the wizard's tower where the brother was recuperating from injury; the second character won the contest). That was a failure. In my main 4e game (which has been on hold for most of a year while one member of the group renovates his house), [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque]the PCs' amibtion is to make it the case that the time of the Dusk War has not yet come[/url]. Yet one PC is also committed to assembling the Rod of Seven Parts, even though it is known that this is a harbinger of the Dusk War. And most of the PCs are opposed to reformulating the Lattice of Heaven, but (i) help with the assembling of the Rod, which will then allow the Lattice of Heaven to be rebuilt, and (ii) keep doing things that further the interests of the Raven Queen, although that also seems to be about helping her re-establishe the Lattice of Heaven with her as the ruler of the cosmos. These conflicts between hopes and actions, with interweave with discordant goals among the PCs, could well lead to failure. There have also been local failures. [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?312367-Actual-play-another-combat-free-session-with-intra-party-dyanmics]Here's a report of one[/url] that I wrote up and, at the time, found rather poignant. [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?332755-PCs-bring-destruction-down-upon-the-duergar]The PCs bringing destruction to the duergar would be another failure, I think[/url]. In my Cortex+ Heroic game the PCs set out to solve the mystery of the strange Northern Lights and the disturbances in the world of the animal spirits, only to get stuck in a dungeon after being teleported deep into it by a Crypt Thing. One was able to trick the dark elves out of their treasure and return to the surface to live it up; by the time the others escaped, and rejoined him, the Fell Winter had set in and reavers were roaming the lands destroying villages. Another instance of failure. A full discussion of the issue of "achievement" is probably for another thread. Composing a symphony is an achievement; so is throwing a discus 60 metres. Winning a wargame scenario is an achievement; in my view, so is devising a solution to the problem of [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?435239-PCs-vs-Demonweb-Pits-%28continued%29]defeating Lolth[/url] and [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?440504-The-Abyss-sealed-the-drow-freed-the-campaign-reaches-its-climax]sealing the Abyss[/url]. I think there is something related in the neighbourhood. I had thought of posting it yesterday, but felt it might be hard to explain and/or misunderstood - but your post gives it a sensible context. I have posted about using a particular mechanical method to [I]reach a paeticular compromise[/I] - do we go to place X next, or to place Y. Some posters have treated this as (more-or-less) equivalent to - do we do thing A, or thing B; where things A and B are understood as extended over some period of time. This makes sense if one assumes that place X is where thing A is going to happen, and place Y is where thing B is going to happen. But if that assumption doesn't hold, then nor does the equivalence. In the sort of game I run, the assumption doesn't hold. Place X is different from place Y, and so offers different opportunities for players to declare actions (eg you can declare different actions in the Abyss compared to the Underdark). But there is no concern that X means some pre-determined A which is different from the B the compromising PC (and player) may have wanted to pursue. Even in place X, stuff is still going to happen that speaks to that PC (it will just be Abyssal stuff rather than Underdark-y stuff). [/QUOTE]
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