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"Gamism," The Forge, and the Elephant in the Room
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<blockquote data-quote="LurkAway" data-source="post: 5803525" data-attributes="member: 6685059"><p>I don't know... Enworld mods and other RPG forum mods have been slaying trolls, quenching inflammatory posts, and warding off editions wars for years, and they're (mostly) normal.</p><p></p><p>I have shifted in one respect. I think I understand better that GNS deems to describe 3 poles of roleplaying agendas. Just like nobody lives permanently in the South Pole, pure 100% Gamist agendas are surely non-existent in rpgs. Gamist roleplaying may sound like an oxymoron, but even if so, that's still only a theoretical elephant in a theoretical room.</p><p></p><p>GNS is just one possible layer of existence, so to speak. In another layer, you have the 4 poles of Thinkers, Power Gamers, Character Actors, and Storytellers. Monte's "Uniting the Editions" lists D&D playstyles as Fast and simple, Story-based, Tactical combat, Simulationist, and Heroic and High Action, and claims that D&D "needs to cater to all of [those playstyles]". Until reconciled (if possible), these paradigms co-exist as much as you want them to and each is as useful as you think it's useful.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I don't think the elephant in the room is Gamism.</p><p></p><p>I think the elephant in the room is Ron Edwards.</p><p></p><p>I think GNS/Big Model would get a boost by ditching Edwards as its spokesperson and finding another interpretor. Edwards' unfortunate history of lack of social graces makes him, IMO, not only useless but actively subversive towards mass acceptance of GNS. If I was his agent, I would try to keep him contained with his clique at The Forge, and hire a publicist -- someone with one foot in The Forge and one foot in the real world -- to do all the talking (unnecessarily harsh, maybe, but...)</p><p></p><p>RPGs are for most people a leisure social activity. Geek internet debate is fun too, as long we're treating each other as real people with a fun agenda, not blank users digesting an academic lecture. Pretentious theorizing and rude-sounding pronouncements can be met with great hostility, maybe because it essentially undermines the fun nature of RPGs. For example, the Tommy/Johnny/Spike/Vorthus articles may lack rigorous whateveryoucallit, but it gets the tone exactly right for MtG players. A good GNS ambassador would never lose sight of the importance of presentation, clarity, empathy, humility, mututal respect, and fun.</p><p></p><p>(All of the above assumes that GNS controversy is just as it seems, which I've acknowledged I'm not fully versed in.)</p><p></p><p>So I think presentation of GNS ideas is just as important as the idea itself, and how much that can be underestimated (as witnessed, coincidentally, with the 4E marketing debacle vs countermeasures taken with 5E). With all due respect, I think taking direct quotes from Ron Edwards can inadvertently subvert your efforts IMO -- unless you were only meaning to preach to the choir?</p><p></p><p>My secondary contention -- that the scope (and thus usefulness) of interpretive theory might be limited by an author's (lack of) empathy or humility -- is speculative and I don't expect to dissuade GNS supporters with that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LurkAway, post: 5803525, member: 6685059"] I don't know... Enworld mods and other RPG forum mods have been slaying trolls, quenching inflammatory posts, and warding off editions wars for years, and they're (mostly) normal. I have shifted in one respect. I think I understand better that GNS deems to describe 3 poles of roleplaying agendas. Just like nobody lives permanently in the South Pole, pure 100% Gamist agendas are surely non-existent in rpgs. Gamist roleplaying may sound like an oxymoron, but even if so, that's still only a theoretical elephant in a theoretical room. GNS is just one possible layer of existence, so to speak. In another layer, you have the 4 poles of Thinkers, Power Gamers, Character Actors, and Storytellers. Monte's "Uniting the Editions" lists D&D playstyles as Fast and simple, Story-based, Tactical combat, Simulationist, and Heroic and High Action, and claims that D&D "needs to cater to all of [those playstyles]". Until reconciled (if possible), these paradigms co-exist as much as you want them to and each is as useful as you think it's useful. Anyway, I don't think the elephant in the room is Gamism. I think the elephant in the room is Ron Edwards. I think GNS/Big Model would get a boost by ditching Edwards as its spokesperson and finding another interpretor. Edwards' unfortunate history of lack of social graces makes him, IMO, not only useless but actively subversive towards mass acceptance of GNS. If I was his agent, I would try to keep him contained with his clique at The Forge, and hire a publicist -- someone with one foot in The Forge and one foot in the real world -- to do all the talking (unnecessarily harsh, maybe, but...) RPGs are for most people a leisure social activity. Geek internet debate is fun too, as long we're treating each other as real people with a fun agenda, not blank users digesting an academic lecture. Pretentious theorizing and rude-sounding pronouncements can be met with great hostility, maybe because it essentially undermines the fun nature of RPGs. For example, the Tommy/Johnny/Spike/Vorthus articles may lack rigorous whateveryoucallit, but it gets the tone exactly right for MtG players. A good GNS ambassador would never lose sight of the importance of presentation, clarity, empathy, humility, mututal respect, and fun. (All of the above assumes that GNS controversy is just as it seems, which I've acknowledged I'm not fully versed in.) So I think presentation of GNS ideas is just as important as the idea itself, and how much that can be underestimated (as witnessed, coincidentally, with the 4E marketing debacle vs countermeasures taken with 5E). With all due respect, I think taking direct quotes from Ron Edwards can inadvertently subvert your efforts IMO -- unless you were only meaning to preach to the choir? My secondary contention -- that the scope (and thus usefulness) of interpretive theory might be limited by an author's (lack of) empathy or humility -- is speculative and I don't expect to dissuade GNS supporters with that. [/QUOTE]
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