Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
Playing the Game
Play by Post
Living Worlds
Living Pathfinder [closed]
General Discussion
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="jkason" data-source="post: 6366875" data-attributes="member: 2710"><p>Spiritual Ally seems to muddy things a bit further, since that showed up in the same book that DID have the Oracle, so it's harder to argue that the language was just because a spontaneous divine caster didn't exist yet. And I just checked, and the Ancestor mystery was actually designed even later, for Ultimate Magic, when it's even harder to argue "never conceived of it" as a reason for the choices. </p><p></p><p>Does it seem like a weakness of the Ancestor mystery to have two spells that will have poorer attacks than would be likely from a cleric or inquisitor casting it? Absolutely yes, but like Mowgli says, subpar class options aren't exclusive to this. The fixed bonus spells from things like mysteries and bloodlines have <em>always</em> been a mixed bag. Just from some quick skimming of pfsrd:</p><p></p><p>What about that super-powerful bonus <em>Tongues</em> spell that Aberrant sorcerers get as their bonus 7th level? Imperious is stuck with <em>greater age resistance</em> for heck's sake. Infernal bloodline players get a super useful spell to ... protect them from Good-aligned attacks; super likely to get use in LPF where we don't run evil characters. </p><p></p><p>I'm not convinced shillelagh is especially useful with the Wood Weapon revelation. And how many animals do we really think Nature oracles are likely to awaken at 2,000gp a pop? They're fine fluff, but are identify, tongues, and legend lore really worth anything else you're getting from the Lore mystery?</p><p></p><p>Shall we comment on the charm / hold / dominate animal chain's utility for Animal domain clerics? The Healing domain sticks you with four spells you could already cast spontaneously, even though you're already empowering your heals so you wouldn't need as many. </p><p></p><p>This is probably sounding harsher than I mean it. I'm totally not trying to be. I'm honestly asking the questions, and pointing out that, if our argument is "spell on a bonus fixed list isn't all that useful for the class," then there's a lot of other, similarly not-awesome spells that folks get stuck with that might be worth re-considering. </p><p></p><p>For what it may or may not be worth: the ability to ignore fixed lists and their concomitant mixed bag is one of the big draws for the <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/ancient-lorekeeper-oracle-elf" target="_blank">Ancient Lorekeeper</a> archetype, as I understand it. You can qualify for it out of the box with an elf or half-elf, but can also get it via the Racial Heritage feat, which you can use with half-orcs, humans, and aasimar (using the Scion of Humanity alt racial).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jkason, post: 6366875, member: 2710"] Spiritual Ally seems to muddy things a bit further, since that showed up in the same book that DID have the Oracle, so it's harder to argue that the language was just because a spontaneous divine caster didn't exist yet. And I just checked, and the Ancestor mystery was actually designed even later, for Ultimate Magic, when it's even harder to argue "never conceived of it" as a reason for the choices. Does it seem like a weakness of the Ancestor mystery to have two spells that will have poorer attacks than would be likely from a cleric or inquisitor casting it? Absolutely yes, but like Mowgli says, subpar class options aren't exclusive to this. The fixed bonus spells from things like mysteries and bloodlines have [i]always[/i] been a mixed bag. Just from some quick skimming of pfsrd: What about that super-powerful bonus [i]Tongues[/i] spell that Aberrant sorcerers get as their bonus 7th level? Imperious is stuck with [i]greater age resistance[/i] for heck's sake. Infernal bloodline players get a super useful spell to ... protect them from Good-aligned attacks; super likely to get use in LPF where we don't run evil characters. I'm not convinced shillelagh is especially useful with the Wood Weapon revelation. And how many animals do we really think Nature oracles are likely to awaken at 2,000gp a pop? They're fine fluff, but are identify, tongues, and legend lore really worth anything else you're getting from the Lore mystery? Shall we comment on the charm / hold / dominate animal chain's utility for Animal domain clerics? The Healing domain sticks you with four spells you could already cast spontaneously, even though you're already empowering your heals so you wouldn't need as many. This is probably sounding harsher than I mean it. I'm totally not trying to be. I'm honestly asking the questions, and pointing out that, if our argument is "spell on a bonus fixed list isn't all that useful for the class," then there's a lot of other, similarly not-awesome spells that folks get stuck with that might be worth re-considering. For what it may or may not be worth: the ability to ignore fixed lists and their concomitant mixed bag is one of the big draws for the [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/ancient-lorekeeper-oracle-elf]Ancient Lorekeeper[/url] archetype, as I understand it. You can qualify for it out of the box with an elf or half-elf, but can also get it via the Racial Heritage feat, which you can use with half-orcs, humans, and aasimar (using the Scion of Humanity alt racial). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
Playing the Game
Play by Post
Living Worlds
Living Pathfinder [closed]
General Discussion
Top