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<blockquote data-quote="Water Bob" data-source="post: 6580470" data-attributes="member: 92305"><p><strong>-- CROSSBOWS AND THE DROP --</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are subtle (or, maybe, not so subtle) differences between standard d20 3.5 D&D and Pathfinder that, for me, make the Conan RPG a superior game. One of these aspects of the Conan game is the fact that armor does not make a character harder to hit, but if the character is it, the armor will absorb some or all of the damage.</p><p></p><p>Just that little fact makes weapon choice important in areas besides roleplaying. Weapon choice, in the Conan RPG, is more than just selecting the weapon that delivers the highest amount of damage. For example, a war hammer in the Conan game has an Armor Piercing value of 7 but only does 1d6 damage. Compare this to a cutlass, which does 1d10 damage but only has an Armor Piercing score of 2. The cutlass is not a good weapon to use against an armored foe as it damage will often get reduced by the full value of the armor Damage Reduction rating. The heavier armors will often result in zero damage even after a successful hit (because the weapon did not penetrate the target's armor).</p><p></p><p>The war hammer, on the other hand has a high Armor Piercing score, and, thus, will do more damage, on average, against armored foes that would the cutlass in spite of its inferior damage die. This is because the war hammer will, more often than not, break through the foe's armor. When a weapon pierces the target's armor, the Damage Reduction of the armor is halved.</p><p></p><p>What I love about this is that it gives the game a strong mechanical reason for Pirate characters to prefer the cutlass over the war hammer, as they go up against unarmored foes often. And, the war hammer you will most likely find on the large battlefield of armored knights and soldiers where the heavier armors are normally worn.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>The Drop - A New Function For The Crossbow</strong></p><p></p><p>Crossbows can be important in a game for the same reason I illustrated above. Crossbows, and their heavier brother, the arbalest, are historically designed to penetrate armor. Not surprisingly, the crossbow (and arbalest) have high Armor Piercing values in this game. Where a Hunting Bow is at Armor Piercing value 1 (and that's only good for the first 50 feet as AP drops to zero after that distance), the crossbow is rated four times as high at AP 4, and that drops by 1 every 60 feet--giving the crossbow penetration over a much longer range.</p><p></p><p>The strongest bow in the core rulebook is the Bossonian Longbow, rated at AP 5 and given a range increment of 80 feet. It's a hell of a weapon meant to simulate the effect the historical English longbow had on warfare (and make the Bossonians, in the game, the ultimate archers of the Hyborian Age). Well, compare that bow to the arbalest, the larger cousin of the crossbow, which has an Armor Piercing score of 6 (the highest in the core rulebook for a ranged weapon) and a range increment of 70 feet. Sure, the range isn't there to equal the Bossonian bow, but the Bossonian weapon is rare, considered an Exotic weapon. You won't find too many of them outside of Aquilonia. But the arbalest, you will find in all of the Hyborian nations. In addition, damage on the Bossonian bow is 1d12 where as damage on the arbalest is 2d8 (rolling two dice makes it much more likely that higher average damage is thrown, and the maximum of 16 is four points higher than that of the Bossonian bow). It is much more likely that a crossbow or an arbalest will be compared to a Hunting bow because of the Exotic nature of the regional bows with higher AP and DMG ratings.</p><p></p><p>The reason bows remain more popular with the peoples of the Hyborian Age is twofold. First, bows are easier to manufacture. It takes technological prowess to create a crossbow. And, second, the rate of fire on a bow is generally superior. The hunting bow may only do AP 1 at 50 paces, but it can be fired twice a round (when the archer gives up movement). But, if you're dealing with an armored foe, the crossbow and the arbalest are clearly the superior choices. A hunting bow may even hit twice, doing 1d8 damage, but if the target, wearing a simple leather jerkin (Armor Value 4), is at 60 feet, both shots from the bow will splinter against the target's armor doing no damage at all. A crossbow, though, will penetrate the armor, doing much more damage.</p><p></p><p>Yes, crossbows and arbalests take a long time to reload, but where armored targets are concerned, they are obviously the correct choice of ranged weapon.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><em>Got the Drop on 'em....</em></strong></p><p></p><p>The idea I'm about to discuss is one that I've considered before (and wrote about before earlier in the thread). Experience gaming with the rules many times fosters better house rules. And, here, I am focusing the Drop Rule on Crossbows alone (with maybe a few exceptions).</p><p></p><p>The original idea for the Drop Rule came with my frustration (back when playing 1E AD&D) about situations where a guard or soldier has a crossbow cocked and leveled at a target. If the prisoner has a lot of hit points, then it was never much of an issue to have guards "cover" a prisoner with their weapons. Those guarded would take their chances because there was no risk. If they were hit, then so what? They lost 1d4 hit points from a crossbow quarrel. At second level and beyond, having a crossbow leveled at you quickly became a non-event.</p><p></p><p>The Conan rules, and the 3.5 D20 rules that they are based on, took steps making a leveled crossbow scarier, as a prisoner could be considered flatfooted (and may loose some defense). In the Conan RPG, being flatfooted means that the character cannot Dodge or Parry, and thus he uses his base AC which is almost always AC 10. This made it much more likely for a crossbow to hit. And, in the Conan game, most weapons are beefed up. The crossbow does 2d6 damage, and the arbalest does 2d8 (they've come a long way from 1d4 and 1d4+1 in the AD&D game!). In addition, the Massive Damage rule kicks in at a mere 20 points of damage (it is 50 points of damage in 3.5 D&D) so that, if any weapon does 20 points of damage from a single attack, the victim must make a saving throw or die.</p><p></p><p>My idea is simple: Whenever a foe has a cocked and loaded crossbow aimed at a character, "covering" him, it is said that the foe "has the drop on him," and the Drop Rule will activate. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Example:</strong></p><p></p><p>The classic example from the Conan stories is when Arus, the watchman, leveled his crossbow at Conan in Robert E. Howard's story, <strong>The God In The Bowl</strong>. According to Mongoose's published adventure of that REH tale (available in the The Compendium hardback), Arus is a 3rd level Nemedian Soldier. When Arus has the drop on Conan, this means that the crossbow he has has a Critical Threat range of 17-20 (instead of the normal 20) for his next shot, as long as he continues to have the drop on his target. Should Conan attempt something, initiative is still thrown as usual. When Arus fires, he's got a 20% chance (naturally rolling a 17-20) to roll double damage. With the crossbow, double damage means damage of 4d6, making it much more likely that 20 points will be scored and the Massive Damage rule invoked.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Should the Drop Rule be used in other ways?</strong></p><p></p><p>My opinion is that the Drop Rule should be almost exclusively with crossbows. These are supposed to be extremely scary weapons, after all. But, I can see one other instance where the Drop Rule might be used. And, that is when a thief sneaks up on an unsuspecting Soldier and puts a blade to the victims throat before the Soldier can react. If a thief (or, really, any character) successfully does this, then consider the Drop Rule in effect.</p><p></p><p>Of course, the other argument is that the Drop Rule is not needed in this instance (that it should remain in the domain of the crossbow) as the GM could consider the victim a Helpless Defender. In this case,the thief could use a Coup de Grace to automatically score a critical hit AND make a Fort save against death.</p><p></p><p>My preference here is that the Drop Rule above should apply exclusively to crossbows, and this idea of a blade to the throat should be played out using the Coup De Grace and Helpless Defender rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Is there an in-game rule that renders the Drop Rule unnecessary?</strong></p><p></p><p>Yes. You can use the option above, but also let me draw your attention to the Helpless Defender/Coup De Grace rules on page 198 of the core rulebook. There, it specifically states that a crossbow or bow can be used.</p><p></p><p>What I object to is that, with a crossbow, the target has no chance at all. I think there should be a chance that a critical hit is avoided, and I like how the Drop Rule handles that situation. It's easy (just add character level to the weapon's Threat Range), and there's plenty of room for the target to escape certain death after a failed mandatory save against death.</p><p></p><p>In the end, it's your game. Use what you feel is correct. I'm just presenting options here.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Water Bob, post: 6580470, member: 92305"] [b]-- CROSSBOWS AND THE DROP --[/b] There are subtle (or, maybe, not so subtle) differences between standard d20 3.5 D&D and Pathfinder that, for me, make the Conan RPG a superior game. One of these aspects of the Conan game is the fact that armor does not make a character harder to hit, but if the character is it, the armor will absorb some or all of the damage. Just that little fact makes weapon choice important in areas besides roleplaying. Weapon choice, in the Conan RPG, is more than just selecting the weapon that delivers the highest amount of damage. For example, a war hammer in the Conan game has an Armor Piercing value of 7 but only does 1d6 damage. Compare this to a cutlass, which does 1d10 damage but only has an Armor Piercing score of 2. The cutlass is not a good weapon to use against an armored foe as it damage will often get reduced by the full value of the armor Damage Reduction rating. The heavier armors will often result in zero damage even after a successful hit (because the weapon did not penetrate the target's armor). The war hammer, on the other hand has a high Armor Piercing score, and, thus, will do more damage, on average, against armored foes that would the cutlass in spite of its inferior damage die. This is because the war hammer will, more often than not, break through the foe's armor. When a weapon pierces the target's armor, the Damage Reduction of the armor is halved. What I love about this is that it gives the game a strong mechanical reason for Pirate characters to prefer the cutlass over the war hammer, as they go up against unarmored foes often. And, the war hammer you will most likely find on the large battlefield of armored knights and soldiers where the heavier armors are normally worn. [b]The Drop - A New Function For The Crossbow[/b] Crossbows can be important in a game for the same reason I illustrated above. Crossbows, and their heavier brother, the arbalest, are historically designed to penetrate armor. Not surprisingly, the crossbow (and arbalest) have high Armor Piercing values in this game. Where a Hunting Bow is at Armor Piercing value 1 (and that's only good for the first 50 feet as AP drops to zero after that distance), the crossbow is rated four times as high at AP 4, and that drops by 1 every 60 feet--giving the crossbow penetration over a much longer range. The strongest bow in the core rulebook is the Bossonian Longbow, rated at AP 5 and given a range increment of 80 feet. It's a hell of a weapon meant to simulate the effect the historical English longbow had on warfare (and make the Bossonians, in the game, the ultimate archers of the Hyborian Age). Well, compare that bow to the arbalest, the larger cousin of the crossbow, which has an Armor Piercing score of 6 (the highest in the core rulebook for a ranged weapon) and a range increment of 70 feet. Sure, the range isn't there to equal the Bossonian bow, but the Bossonian weapon is rare, considered an Exotic weapon. You won't find too many of them outside of Aquilonia. But the arbalest, you will find in all of the Hyborian nations. In addition, damage on the Bossonian bow is 1d12 where as damage on the arbalest is 2d8 (rolling two dice makes it much more likely that higher average damage is thrown, and the maximum of 16 is four points higher than that of the Bossonian bow). It is much more likely that a crossbow or an arbalest will be compared to a Hunting bow because of the Exotic nature of the regional bows with higher AP and DMG ratings. The reason bows remain more popular with the peoples of the Hyborian Age is twofold. First, bows are easier to manufacture. It takes technological prowess to create a crossbow. And, second, the rate of fire on a bow is generally superior. The hunting bow may only do AP 1 at 50 paces, but it can be fired twice a round (when the archer gives up movement). But, if you're dealing with an armored foe, the crossbow and the arbalest are clearly the superior choices. A hunting bow may even hit twice, doing 1d8 damage, but if the target, wearing a simple leather jerkin (Armor Value 4), is at 60 feet, both shots from the bow will splinter against the target's armor doing no damage at all. A crossbow, though, will penetrate the armor, doing much more damage. Yes, crossbows and arbalests take a long time to reload, but where armored targets are concerned, they are obviously the correct choice of ranged weapon. [b][i]Got the Drop on 'em....[/i][/b] The idea I'm about to discuss is one that I've considered before (and wrote about before earlier in the thread). Experience gaming with the rules many times fosters better house rules. And, here, I am focusing the Drop Rule on Crossbows alone (with maybe a few exceptions). The original idea for the Drop Rule came with my frustration (back when playing 1E AD&D) about situations where a guard or soldier has a crossbow cocked and leveled at a target. If the prisoner has a lot of hit points, then it was never much of an issue to have guards "cover" a prisoner with their weapons. Those guarded would take their chances because there was no risk. If they were hit, then so what? They lost 1d4 hit points from a crossbow quarrel. At second level and beyond, having a crossbow leveled at you quickly became a non-event. The Conan rules, and the 3.5 D20 rules that they are based on, took steps making a leveled crossbow scarier, as a prisoner could be considered flatfooted (and may loose some defense). In the Conan RPG, being flatfooted means that the character cannot Dodge or Parry, and thus he uses his base AC which is almost always AC 10. This made it much more likely for a crossbow to hit. And, in the Conan game, most weapons are beefed up. The crossbow does 2d6 damage, and the arbalest does 2d8 (they've come a long way from 1d4 and 1d4+1 in the AD&D game!). In addition, the Massive Damage rule kicks in at a mere 20 points of damage (it is 50 points of damage in 3.5 D&D) so that, if any weapon does 20 points of damage from a single attack, the victim must make a saving throw or die. My idea is simple: Whenever a foe has a cocked and loaded crossbow aimed at a character, "covering" him, it is said that the foe "has the drop on him," and the Drop Rule will activate. [b]Example:[/b] The classic example from the Conan stories is when Arus, the watchman, leveled his crossbow at Conan in Robert E. Howard's story, [b]The God In The Bowl[/b]. According to Mongoose's published adventure of that REH tale (available in the The Compendium hardback), Arus is a 3rd level Nemedian Soldier. When Arus has the drop on Conan, this means that the crossbow he has has a Critical Threat range of 17-20 (instead of the normal 20) for his next shot, as long as he continues to have the drop on his target. Should Conan attempt something, initiative is still thrown as usual. When Arus fires, he's got a 20% chance (naturally rolling a 17-20) to roll double damage. With the crossbow, double damage means damage of 4d6, making it much more likely that 20 points will be scored and the Massive Damage rule invoked. [b]Should the Drop Rule be used in other ways?[/b] My opinion is that the Drop Rule should be almost exclusively with crossbows. These are supposed to be extremely scary weapons, after all. But, I can see one other instance where the Drop Rule might be used. And, that is when a thief sneaks up on an unsuspecting Soldier and puts a blade to the victims throat before the Soldier can react. If a thief (or, really, any character) successfully does this, then consider the Drop Rule in effect. Of course, the other argument is that the Drop Rule is not needed in this instance (that it should remain in the domain of the crossbow) as the GM could consider the victim a Helpless Defender. In this case,the thief could use a Coup de Grace to automatically score a critical hit AND make a Fort save against death. My preference here is that the Drop Rule above should apply exclusively to crossbows, and this idea of a blade to the throat should be played out using the Coup De Grace and Helpless Defender rules. [b]Is there an in-game rule that renders the Drop Rule unnecessary?[/b] Yes. You can use the option above, but also let me draw your attention to the Helpless Defender/Coup De Grace rules on page 198 of the core rulebook. There, it specifically states that a crossbow or bow can be used. What I object to is that, with a crossbow, the target has no chance at all. I think there should be a chance that a critical hit is avoided, and I like how the Drop Rule handles that situation. It's easy (just add character level to the weapon's Threat Range), and there's plenty of room for the target to escape certain death after a failed mandatory save against death. In the end, it's your game. Use what you feel is correct. I'm just presenting options here. [/QUOTE]
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