Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Goodman Games solicits input
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Wulf Ratbane" data-source="post: 5045694" data-attributes="member: 94"><p>It is useful to remember that there are multiple markets to serve.</p><p></p><p>In order of size, there's Mainstream, Customers, Repeat Customers, and then there are Evangelists (or, "true fans.")</p><p></p><p>WotC does not compete for the Mainstream market. Certainly, they want to and they need to, but D&D competes for Mainstream dollars (against, for example, Halo, Guitar Hero, or Grand Theft Auto) in the same way that Pathfinder competes with D&D-- which is to say, not at all. Have you seen that viral video of the kid opening up his XBox 360 on Christmas morning and having a total geekjoy meltdown? How about the viral video where the kid opens his box set of D&D? D&D is an insignificant competitor in the mainstream market. </p><p></p><p>WotC has a dominating position in a <em>niche </em>market: their Customers. This is the market that WotC dominates. This market numbers (I estimate) hundreds of thousands of copies of the core ruleset, and it's sold into big bookstore chains and each and every hobby store. Paizo's competition with WotC in this market scale is also insignificant.</p><p></p><p>I'll note briefly that it's difficult to even get a read on this market, because Customers <em>don't fill out survey cards</em>. They aren't invested enough to even do that. They spend $50 bucks and they <em>move on</em>.</p><p></p><p>Next, there are Repeat Customers. Take that huge Customer pool above and start taking a scalpel to it. Slice away all those copies of the game that sold to one-time purchasers: those who bought the core rules, perhaps they got it as a gift from Mom or Grandma, those who may or may not even ever play it. Once you carve away all the Customers, now you can start looking at the pool of Repeat Customers who will actually come back and invest MORE money into the hobby. They aren't buying the game; they are buying into ongoing support for the game.</p><p></p><p>If you don't have Repeat Customers, then you are locked into a business model that requires a regular release of the core rules in order to generate revenue from Customers again. This is very boom-and-bust.</p><p></p><p>Last but not least you have what I call Evangelists. These are the people who are not only going to be Repeat Customers, they are going to actively spread your game to other gamers and convert them to (at least) Customers and perhaps even Repeat Customers. The Evangelists are a marketing resource-- a treasure.</p><p></p><p>So now Goodman should quite naturally be looking at the market he wants to serve. He's not competing for Mainstream dollars or even WotC's Customer base. He's going to be competing for Repeat Customer or Evangelist dollars. </p><p></p><p>Whose pie does he want a piece of? </p><p></p><p>Does he want to try to get a piece of WotC's admittedly huge Customer base-- customers who have already spent $50 and moved on? This is a customer base that is so tight-fisted that WotC themselves have to figure out how to squeeze another dollar out of them. </p><p></p><p>However, inside the base of Repeat Customers and Evangelists, Paizo <strong><em>absolutely </em></strong>competes with WotC. In fact Paizo (because of the <em>consistently high </em>quality of their work and dedication to their customers) can count a greater proportion of Evangelists among their Repeat Customer base than WotC. There's no doubt in my mind on that count. Paizo has courted and cultured true fans who are eager to spend money on their hobby and eager to get other people playing their game.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile WotC has decided to compete for Mainstream dollars. That may yet prove to be the best choice: the value of D&D for a company the size of WotC/Hasbro is in the <strong>brand</strong>, not in the pissant business of publishing rpg books. They need the rpg business to keep pushing the brand mainstream to increase its value in other businesses (novels, video games, etc.) which can make a difference on the scale of business in which they operate. </p><p></p><p>So I reckon Goodman Games is running a little EV (expected value) calculation. X customers with $Y dollars to spend with Z% likelihood of finding and purchasing your product. With 4e, X is very large; $Y and Z% very small; with Paizo, X is much (much) smaller, but $Y and Z% might be larger. </p><p></p><p>Compete in a huge market of gamers who have empirically proven that they aren't spending any money on the hobby, or compete in a much smaller market of gamers who do spend money on their hobby (and don't do it in a zero-sum fashion-- with Repeat Customers and Evangelists, you grow the pie.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Wulf Ratbane, post: 5045694, member: 94"] It is useful to remember that there are multiple markets to serve. In order of size, there's Mainstream, Customers, Repeat Customers, and then there are Evangelists (or, "true fans.") WotC does not compete for the Mainstream market. Certainly, they want to and they need to, but D&D competes for Mainstream dollars (against, for example, Halo, Guitar Hero, or Grand Theft Auto) in the same way that Pathfinder competes with D&D-- which is to say, not at all. Have you seen that viral video of the kid opening up his XBox 360 on Christmas morning and having a total geekjoy meltdown? How about the viral video where the kid opens his box set of D&D? D&D is an insignificant competitor in the mainstream market. WotC has a dominating position in a [I]niche [/I]market: their Customers. This is the market that WotC dominates. This market numbers (I estimate) hundreds of thousands of copies of the core ruleset, and it's sold into big bookstore chains and each and every hobby store. Paizo's competition with WotC in this market scale is also insignificant. I'll note briefly that it's difficult to even get a read on this market, because Customers [I]don't fill out survey cards[/I]. They aren't invested enough to even do that. They spend $50 bucks and they [I]move on[/I]. Next, there are Repeat Customers. Take that huge Customer pool above and start taking a scalpel to it. Slice away all those copies of the game that sold to one-time purchasers: those who bought the core rules, perhaps they got it as a gift from Mom or Grandma, those who may or may not even ever play it. Once you carve away all the Customers, now you can start looking at the pool of Repeat Customers who will actually come back and invest MORE money into the hobby. They aren't buying the game; they are buying into ongoing support for the game. If you don't have Repeat Customers, then you are locked into a business model that requires a regular release of the core rules in order to generate revenue from Customers again. This is very boom-and-bust. Last but not least you have what I call Evangelists. These are the people who are not only going to be Repeat Customers, they are going to actively spread your game to other gamers and convert them to (at least) Customers and perhaps even Repeat Customers. The Evangelists are a marketing resource-- a treasure. So now Goodman should quite naturally be looking at the market he wants to serve. He's not competing for Mainstream dollars or even WotC's Customer base. He's going to be competing for Repeat Customer or Evangelist dollars. Whose pie does he want a piece of? Does he want to try to get a piece of WotC's admittedly huge Customer base-- customers who have already spent $50 and moved on? This is a customer base that is so tight-fisted that WotC themselves have to figure out how to squeeze another dollar out of them. However, inside the base of Repeat Customers and Evangelists, Paizo [B][I]absolutely [/I][/B]competes with WotC. In fact Paizo (because of the [I]consistently high [/I]quality of their work and dedication to their customers) can count a greater proportion of Evangelists among their Repeat Customer base than WotC. There's no doubt in my mind on that count. Paizo has courted and cultured true fans who are eager to spend money on their hobby and eager to get other people playing their game. Meanwhile WotC has decided to compete for Mainstream dollars. That may yet prove to be the best choice: the value of D&D for a company the size of WotC/Hasbro is in the [B]brand[/B], not in the pissant business of publishing rpg books. They need the rpg business to keep pushing the brand mainstream to increase its value in other businesses (novels, video games, etc.) which can make a difference on the scale of business in which they operate. So I reckon Goodman Games is running a little EV (expected value) calculation. X customers with $Y dollars to spend with Z% likelihood of finding and purchasing your product. With 4e, X is very large; $Y and Z% very small; with Paizo, X is much (much) smaller, but $Y and Z% might be larger. Compete in a huge market of gamers who have empirically proven that they aren't spending any money on the hobby, or compete in a much smaller market of gamers who do spend money on their hobby (and don't do it in a zero-sum fashion-- with Repeat Customers and Evangelists, you grow the pie.) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Goodman Games solicits input
Top